Ich Dilemma

[Jay Hemdal]

Finally got it into the QT. Good thing is that it started eating in Q% almost immediately. Starting with a 1.5ppm Copper Power dose. Fingers crossed.

That's a moderately severe case of ich. If it was velvet, the fish would be breathing hard and not feeding. I have NEVER been able to manage ich at this stage of an infection.

You need to get the Copper Power dose up to full TODAY. Copper Power can take 3 days to start to work. If you take extra time going up slowly, it just gets harder to effect a cure. This whole "ramp copper up slowly" stems from when people used copper/citric acid meds, it doesn't apply to amine-based products. Indeed, we put fish into full copper all the time with no issues at all. The only reason I tell people to make two additions so is to ensure that they test between additions so they get an accurate dose (many people don't know the actual volume of their tanks).

Hold the fish in copper for 30 days, 14 days is not long enough.

Your biggest challenge is going to be managing the ammonia - if not properly managed, it will harm the fish. Then, since you are dosing copper, you will be inclined to say, "Jay was wrong, copper killed my tang" and I don't want that!

Other concerns that I have: given your timing, if I understand it correctly, the fish will be returned to the DT after only a month. That will likely result in reinfection. If that reinfection is mild, you may be able to manage it, since the tang will now have at least some resistance to ich, but remember, the fish remaining in your tank will most likely be harboring a chronic infection....

Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Or 14 days with transfer to another observation tank, typically for another 14 days. He’s doing 7 but to each their own, it’s just observation anyway.

Not as popular obviously because you have to have 2 QT’s instead of 1.

I'm not a fan of 14 days copper treatments, they were what we used with copper sulfate/citric acid treatments back in the 80's. The reasoning was that those copper treatment were pretty rough on fish, and you needed to get the fish out ASAP. With Coppersafe and Copper Power, fish can stay for 30 days with impunity. I routinely have fish held in copper safe for multiple quarantine runs and that means they are in it for over 4 months. I presume Copper Power is similar.

The only way I advocate for "14 days and move", is IF the person then ramps the copper back up in the second tank and moves the fish to a third tank (or the DT if it didn't come from that tank originally) while copper is elevated. That ensures there are no tomites/theronts active when the fish is moved.

Jay

 

[jaganshi066]

I have 3 questions:

1. What concentration did you use the copper power for?

2. How did you check the copper power? (Test kits, how frequent did you test levels etc)

3. When you say you did a 14 day treatment, did you remove the copper from the same tank, or did you transfer the fish into a sterile tank? What did you do after the 14 days of copper finished?

PS: the fish looks like it has velvet. Good call for getting it out. Do any other fish show symptoms?

I don’t know if that is ich, @Jay Hemdal. The white dots aren’t salt like particles

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don’t know if that is ich, @Jay Hemdal. The white dots aren’t salt like particles

Nobody can be 100% accurate in identifying diseases from pictures, but take a look at the middle picture - it shows the trophonts the most clearly. The fish is reported to be still feeding and not breathing fast or hovering in the water currents, that rules out Amyloodinium/Velvet.

Velvet is a lot rarer than people think - moderate to advanced cases of ich are frequently confused with it. What happens is the the Cryptocaryon trophonts begin to cause skin congestion that obscures the nice discrete salt-like spots seen in early stage infections. Velvet may not show any spots at all, and when it does, they are very small and only seen late in the infection.

Since copper works for both diseases, the actual ID is less critical, EXCEPT that with true velvet, the fish may only live 48 hours or so beyond when the symptoms were noted.


Jay

 

[hqn77]

Lol, this thread turned into a 60 minutes interview. But, well done. Getting the full story and all the details is super helpful to other reefers.

So disappointing after all the work and time you put in with a good protocol! My philosophy from the start is that if I’m going to go to all the effort to QT fish I can’t accept the risk from corals and inverts so I started a second QT reef tank for that (which is a cool tank in it's own right with some cool crabs). But, no QT can ever be 100% perfect. For instance mine are side by side which is a no no but I had to have floors installed, so what can I do? 76 days is too long not to add new things, and while rinsing finished things should remove free swimmers we’re talking about microscopic parasites here! It takes soap, water, and scrubbing your hands to rid them of disease reliably not just a quick rinse.

So in the end don’t be too disheartened. What we’re all doing is risk reduction also within the confines of how many tanks our significant others will tolerate and the time and money we’re willing to put in. Maybe your protocol is 80% risk reduction and maybe mine is 90%, but there’s just no such thing as 100%. Some people don’t QT and have never seen ich, others do ich management successfully. I hope I never see ich and would be devastated after all the work and time I’ve put in, but I do know it could happen.

Hopefully someone will learn from what went wrong for me. You're absolutely right that all we're going is risk mitigation. It baffles me that this took so long to manifest itself in my tank. I'm seeing ways to improve my protocols through all this.

 

[hqn77]

Nobody can be 100% accurate in identifying diseases from pictures, but take a look at the middle picture - it shows the trophonts the most clearly. The fish is reported to be still feeding and not breathing fast or hovering in the water currents, that rules out Amyloodinium/Velvet.

Velvet is a lot rarer than people think - moderate to advanced cases of ich are frequently confused with it. What happens is the the Cryptocaryon trophonts begin to cause skin congestion that obscures the nice discrete salt-like spots seen in early stage infections. Velvet may not show any spots at all, and when it does, they are very small and only seen late in the infection.

Since copper works for both diseases, the actual ID is less critical, EXCEPT that with true velvet, the fish may only live 48 hours or so beyond when the symptoms were noted.


Jay

I can try to get better pictures if it can help someone else navigate through the same predicament. Looking at the tang now I'm 99% sure it's ich, but at this point it's in QT and I'm ramping up copper power to 2.0ppm as we speak.

My usual QT protocols aren't going to apply in this case, because I don't plan on re-introducing the purple tang back into the display after 14 or however many days it will take to get rid of the disease. It's by itself in an IM Nuvo 20 gallon tank, and if it's eating and not stressing out, it can be in there longer. I also have a half pound bag of cycled Matrix in there, hopefully that will keep ammonia in check.

My ultimate goal is to go fallow in the DT. At the moment I'm going to focus on management, to buy enough time so that I can property set up and cycle a tank for all the fish to go in while the DT goes fallow. It's going to be a long couple of months ahead. I'm seeing a few 75 gallon tanks posted on Craigslist nearby, that's probably going to be my best option. Time to put some elbow grease into this. Also need to consult with the wife about having another fish tank in the house for 3 months.

I do have one question. Is there a real benefit of getting copper power to 2.5 vs 2.0+?? I understand copper is therapeutic above 2.0, so is it more effective at 2.5ppm??

 

[hqn77]

Currently sitting at 2.2ppm after increasing copper power dose. Need to rant about how much I hate the Hanna reagent powder pouches. Ended up spilling half of the powder on the counter, so that was one wasted test. Have done it before with the PHOs reagent!! Someone please tell Hanna to use pre-measured scoops!!!

Anyways here are some better pictures to end the ich/velvet debate.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Currently sitting at 2.2ppm after increasing copper power dose. Need to rant about how much I hate the Hanna reagent powder pouches. Ended up spilling half of the powder on the counter, so that was one wasted test. Have done it before with the PHOs reagent!! Someone please tell Hanna to use pre-measured scoops!!!

Anyways here are some better pictures to end the ich/velvet debate.

From what I can see, that's clearly ich. The only other thing it could be is idiopathic mucus plugs (these tangs get those pretty often) but with those, the spots would be even bigger and you wouldn't see any on the fins themselves just the body.

I HATE those powder pillows! My stubby fingers just don't work with them well.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I can try to get better pictures if it can help someone else navigate through the same predicament. Looking at the tang now I'm 99% sure it's ich, but at this point it's in QT and I'm ramping up copper power to 2.0ppm as we speak.

My usual QT protocols aren't going to apply in this case, because I don't plan on re-introducing the purple tang back into the display after 14 or however many days it will take to get rid of the disease. It's by itself in an IM Nuvo 20 gallon tank, and if it's eating and not stressing out, it can be in there longer. I also have a half pound bag of cycled Matrix in there, hopefully that will keep ammonia in check.

My ultimate goal is to go fallow in the DT. At the moment I'm going to focus on management, to buy enough time so that I can property set up and cycle a tank for all the fish to go in while the DT goes fallow. It's going to be a long couple of months ahead. I'm seeing a few 75 gallon tanks posted on Craigslist nearby, that's probably going to be my best option. Time to put some elbow grease into this. Also need to consult with the wife about having another fish tank in the house for 3 months.

I do have one question. Is there a real benefit of getting copper power to 2.5 vs 2.0+?? I understand copper is therapeutic above 2.0, so is it more effective at 2.5ppm??

The best dose for Copper Power is a bit of an open question. I ran some tests at the stated bottle instructions and it came out at an average of 2.10 ppm with 0.52 ammonia. Copper Safe is a similar product (somebody needs to look at patents here!) and it tested out at 2.54 with 0.46 ammonia at a full dose. That said, I dislike going against label directions with medications. While many people have been running Copper Power at 2.5, and I might do so myself in a case where the disease wasn't being controlled, I can't really advise others to do the same.... 2.1 to 2.2 is probably the safest target.

Jay

 

[hqn77]

The best dose for Copper Power is a bit of an open question. I ran some tests at the stated bottle instructions and it came out at an average of 2.10 ppm with 0.52 ammonia. Copper Safe is a similar product (somebody needs to look at patents here!) and it tested out at 2.54 with 0.46 ammonia at a full dose. That said, I dislike going against label directions with medications. While many people have been running Copper Power at 2.5, and I might do so myself in a case where the disease wasn't being controlled, I can't really advise others to do the same.... 2.1 to 2.2 is probably the safest target.

Jay

Thanks again Jay, you're an invaluable resource to the reefing community, but you probably already know that! I'm comfortable at 2.2ppm for now, might try to tweak it later on if the tang doesn't improve. Probably too early to tell at this point.

Just did a thorough inspection of the DT 20 minutes ago, everyone looks fine but noticed royal gramma has 3 white dots on its head. It then dashed into its cave. Just got another glimpse at it now, spots are gone. Could've been sand, not sure if ich drops that fast??

 

[Tamberav]

You know, I had never ran a UV on my DT tank (130ish gallons). I just finished placing an Amazon order for the Coralife Turbo Twist 6x, which is rated for 250 gallons. It will arrive tomorrow. Doing research, I am leaning towards ich management, and every reefer I've came across that had success with management of ich has a UV sterilizer.

Before you open up that UV (Amazon has great return policies)... you should do more research on ich and UV. The rating on that UV is not for ich... it's for bacteria/green algae. You need something very STRONG with the right flow. I would hate to see you lose money or put your faith in something that isn't going to work.

 

[hqn77]

Before you open up that UV (Amazon has great return policies)... you should do more research on ich and UV. The rating on that UV is not for ich... it's for bacteria/green algae. You need something very STRONG with the right flow. I would hate to see you lose money or put your faith in something that isn't going to work.

Thanks for the heads-up. I completely understand what wattage of UV sterilizer I would need for my size tank. Unfortunately that's not going to happen because I would just buy a new basic 55 gallon set up and go fallow for the price of a 50+ watt sterilizer, and have money left over. I'm just looking to manage the ich long enough to buy time to plan out and execute a going fallow plan. If the UV unit I got manages to zap a small percentage of ich in the free flowing stage, I will take it. It can't hurt, and I have been thinking of adding one for algae control for a long time. I've just been too busy/lazy to get one and plumb it into existing system.

Recommended flow for the Turbo Twist 6x is between 200-400 gph. I'm going to temporarily hook it up to an IM MightyJet pump rated at 320 gph. I should be able to fine tune that pump as needed.

 

[jaganshi066]

Nobody can be 100% accurate in identifying diseases from pictures, but take a look at the middle picture - it shows the trophonts the most clearly. The fish is reported to be still feeding and not breathing fast or hovering in the water currents, that rules out Amyloodinium/Velvet.

Velvet is a lot rarer than people think - moderate to advanced cases of ich are frequently confused with it. What happens is the the Cryptocaryon trophonts begin to cause skin congestion that obscures the nice discrete salt-like spots seen in early stage infections. Velvet may not show any spots at all, and when it does, they are very small and only seen late in the infection.

Since copper works for both diseases, the actual ID is less critical, EXCEPT that with true velvet, the fish may only live 48 hours or so beyond when the symptoms were noted.


Jay

You’re probably right! Also I did a freshwater dip with one of my multibar angels and there were white things that started to surface and came off of him, probably flukes. Can flukes cause him to stop eating and kill him? If so how fatal and quickly do they kill?

 

[Tamberav]

Thanks for the heads-up. I completely understand what wattage of UV sterilizer I would need for my size tank. Unfortunately that's not going to happen because I would just buy a new basic 55 gallon set up and go fallow for the price of a 50+ watt sterilizer, and have money left over. I'm just looking to manage the ich long enough to buy time to plan out and execute a going fallow plan. If the UV unit I got manages to zap a small percentage of ich in the free flowing stage, I will take it. It can't hurt, and I have been thinking of adding one for algae control for a long time. I've just been too busy/lazy to get one and plumb it into existing system.

Recommended flow for the Turbo Twist 6x is between 200-400 gph. I'm going to temporarily hook it up to an IM MightyJet pump rated at 320 gph. I should be able to fine tune that pump as needed.

According to the comments on Amazon. The last page of the manual of that UV shows you need to run 110 GPH for parasites. Just FYI so you use it correctly. Be sure to check out the manual. Maybe they have it on their main website in a PDF.

 

[hqn77]

According to the comments on Amazon. The last page of the manual of that UV shows you need to run 110 GPH for parasites. Just FYI so you use it correctly. Be sure to check out the manual. Maybe they have it on their main website in a PDF.

Yes I did check Coralife's manual. 110 GPH is for the 3x 9w. I got the 6x 18w and crossed check the recommended flow with Saltwaterquarium.com and Marineandreef.com product pages.

 

[Tamberav]

Yes I did check Coralife's manual. 110 GPH is for the 3x 9w. I got the 6x 18w and crossed check the recommended flow with Saltwaterquarium.com and Marineandreef.com product pages.

Sounds like you are set then

 

[BVF]

Pretty fish. Hope he pulls through for you.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You’re probably right! Also I did a freshwater dip with one of my multibar angels and there were white things that started to surface and came off of him, probably flukes. Can flukes cause him to stop eating and kill him? If so how fatal and quickly do they kill?

Flukes can kill fish two ways: from direct blood loss, or by secondary infection from the holes they make in the fish's skin or gills. Normally though, fish don't stop feeding if they have flukes, until right before they are about to die. The general symptoms of flukes include: cloudy eyes, tattered fins, scratching and sometimes rapid breathing. There are gill flukes and skin flukes.

Jay

 

[Miami Reef]

Flukes can kill fish two ways: from direct blood loss, or by secondary infection from the holes they make in the fish's skin or gills. Normally though, fish don't stop feeding if they have flukes, until right before they are about to die. The general symptoms of flukes include: cloudy eyes, tattered fins, scratching and sometimes rapid breathing. There are gill flukes and skin flukes.

Jay

There is also a third way: when flukes reproduce in gills to the point where fish suffocate.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

There is also a third way: when flukes reproduce in gills to the point where fish suffocate.

It’s sort of splitting hairs, but flukes don’t physically suffocate the fish, they cause anemia which causes the fish to not be able to utilize oxygen from the water. If you look at the gills of a heavily infested fish under a microscope, you’ll see maybe 5% coverage on the filaments…not enough to physically suffocate the fish.
Jay