Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    As a proponent of natural filtration producing in tank live food to promote healthy immune systems in both fish & coral. I have not quarantined in 35 years of 47 years in keeping marine tanks. I have seen ich twice in my systems. The first time I saw ich was on an established mature 10 year old system that had not seen any additions in 2 years. Following a loss of power stress event, I saw Ich everywhere in 1000G extended system. I reestablished stability and ich disappeared. Ten years later, I saw ich thru shipping bags on seven tiny Hippo tangs. Fish were sideways and showed great stress in color loss & eratic breathing. I made an executive decision and immediately released tangs into fife teen year old tank that had ich five years earlier. Scratching & itching behavior was evident on all new tangs, four showed obvious ich spots in the shipping bag after a 90 day quarantine at DD. After 3 days, all ich spots disappeared. After 7 days all scratching & itching ceased. That was ten years ago. Do I have dormat ich in my 25 year old tank? Probably.

    After I went through the first ich episode 25 years ago, I started reading scientific papers on ich with the wisdom at the time for fallow period was 14 days. The days to fallow have increased from 14 to present
    76 day fallow period. The fallow period has been increased because it is not absolute. I continued reading research paper in detail and one phrase stuck out, “most cyst will hatch in X days”. Nature will survive.
     
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  2. fishybizzness

    fishybizzness Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    I am currently in a cryptocarian managed tank as well. I lost several fish at which time I added a small uv sterilizer and started feeding strictly fresh food with selcon added.i currently have 2wrasses and some gobies that are doing well. I will be upgrading to my 120 from a 55 and purchased a 40 w uv sterilizer on black Friday and will be plumbing it into the new system. My question for you is where in the system do you pull the water to feed the uv? From the sump or directly from the display? Thanks
     
  3. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    Display tank. You will never kill all populations of pathogens, but UV will limit populations. Natural auto immune system is the best prevention by reducing stress and feeding well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  4. fishybizzness

    fishybizzness Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    Do you have a pump in the display supplying it or is it supplied by your overflow or some other method? Thanks
     
  5. mav1ms

    mav1ms Member R2R Supporter

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    I plumbed mine from the return area of my sump. So it is a completely separate return pump that flows through the UV and then into my display tank. I have a Neptune Apex and have a flow-sensor on that line as well as my main return line. That way I know exactly how much flow is going through my UV so as to make sure I have the correct dwell time to sterilize. It has not affected my pods or bacteria as my Nitrates have been stable and no change in ammonia (at 0 always) since the addition of the UV.

    I think either way you do it will be fine. I plumbed this way so as to keep my tank from being cluttered.
     
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  6. fishybizzness

    fishybizzness Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    In my current setup I have a valved manifold off my return line with a Neptune flow valve as well. I have it plumbed to return the water to the first chamber, which is where my skimmer is. I've been reading alot about the life cycle of the parasite and learned that it mostly has its free swimming stage at night so I run mine from 7 pm to 6 am. In my new setup I will most likely be trying the same thing. Do you think there is any major benefits to running it 24-7?
     
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  7. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    I think it is important to maximize sterilization in display by supplying UV with water from the display. I used a canister filter for easy plumbing and flexibility with chemical filtration.

    A gravity feed from display to sump would be fine.
     
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  8. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    24/7
     
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  9. mav1ms

    mav1ms Member R2R Supporter

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    I would agree with @Subsea, if you can maximize the exposure that is best. Other than extending the bulb life I wouldn't see any reason to not run it 24/7.
     
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  10. fishybizzness

    fishybizzness Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    Thanks for all the help and advice! I will definitely be running it 24-7 then. I just have to figure out how to feed it with water directly from the display.
     
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  11. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I can't wait for the day when most people realize that the best way to keep fish safe from parasites is to have a healthy population of parasites living with your fish. But I am sure i will croak long before that happens and in Fifty years you will hear things like :
    Yeah, that old Geezer was right. All my fish are immune and I am no longer into the snowflake method. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  12. pshootr

    pshootr Well-Known Member

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    I am confident that if being cheap and lazy was the answer. Then everyone would agree with this approach.
     
  13. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    Would you explain what you are talking about or in reference too!
     
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  14. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Oh Paul, come on! It wouldn't be any fun if we all did it your way. That would be so boring. :) I wouldn't have any thing to do!!!
     
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  15. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    As corners are cut more and more in the distribution system, that becomes less and less possible. Acanthurus tang, namely powder blue or Achilles will change your story, friend. You’re right about a lot, but those two pieces get missed.

    Anyone can keep gobies, cardinals, a couple damsels, and wrasse in a tank with parasites man! :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  16. pshootr

    pshootr Well-Known Member

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    Just ribbing Paul "playfully of course".

    But I think you already knew that.
     
  17. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I know, that is why I love to come on these threads. :D
    All this disease stuff seems so silly to me, but I am old and maybe all my fish croaked from Alzheimer's disease and I don't even know it. :eek:

    I really find those fish boring but you are going to force me to get one. The problem with them is they get very big and live to long so I will have to look at a boring fish that I can't catch to give away.

    My copperband is maybe 9 years old and many people seem to have problems with them ich and other things.

    That's true, but to keep them with 6 pipefish and a couple of mandarins and have all of them spawn constantly then die of old age 10 or 15 years later, not so much. :p

    Every fish I get people tell me, well that is an easy fish and anyone can keep them, but on the disease forum I see all sorts of fish, even clowns and you need a bus full of real clowns to run them over to kill them. :eek:
    But I still love you guys, in a Manly sort of way and this thread keeps me on my toes which is hard because I am getting a new knee soon and I don't think I will be able to walk on my toes, so no more ballet lessons.
     
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  18. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    No, actually my feelings are beyond dented. I think I will stick my head in my white worm culture. :eek:

    Pshootr, Everything I do or say in this hobby is for fun or ribbing. It's a hobby, we are not curing cancer, ingrown toenails or male pattern baldness (unfortunately)
    Hobby's are by definition supposed to be fun. If we start taking this stuff too seriously we can't call it a hobby any more and we will have to start calling it work, and I for one don't want to do that as I am into having fun. We all have enough real problems and this is an escape, or a hobby. :)

    My fish are all very easy, common fish that everyone has and they don't even know how to spell "Ick"

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    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  19. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    Paul
    I found it amazing that you moved a 47 year old tank during the middle of Christmas holidays one year ago, during a blizzard. Glad your tank is rocking along.
     
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  20. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Paul you crack me up! I hope you do get an acanthurus tang. I have to admit the pipefish are cool... Especially the white one in your photos. Admittedly, I know absolutely nothing about them. What is it you find boring about a tang? I am just curious. They are some of the most active fish in my tank. I admire your sense of humor and the fact that we can agree to disagree on immunity vs prophylactic treatment like grown men. You are right this is supposed to be fun and it is!
     
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