Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. Victoria M

    Victoria M Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    You mean new hobbyist purchasing fish that are gonna die without proper treatment?
     
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  2. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Meaning the supply chain is so badly polluted with disease right now, that it is hard for new hobbyists to succeed. (Even if they QT.)

    5-10 years ago ich & flukes were the norm, and both diseases were easily treatable with copper & Prazipro (respectively).

    Nowadays, you are more likely to encounter Marine Velvet Disease & Gram Negative Bacterial Infections - and those are much more virulent diseases. :(
     
  3. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    +1

    And to add to it, partial treatments seem to be making traditional treatments less effective. I also feel that the specific strains of Velvet are becoming more virulent as time goes on. I think some of the most deadly strains used to never make it through the supply chain. As shipping speeds increased it allowed these even deadlier strains to make it further through the supply chain. I know I'm coming across as negative, and for that I apologize.
     
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  4. Victoria M

    Victoria M Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    This is very disappointing to hear but I am kinda dealing with this right now. I am going to have to speak to my fav LFS owner to see what his experience has been. I usually got my fish from them, occassionally buying fish from other fishstores. But I just got a batch of fish to QT in a 20L and I have already had two losses and two more are looking possible. :(
     
  5. Mortie31

    Mortie31 Valuable Member R2R Supporter UK Reef Club Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I’ve always been an advocate of disease maintenance and have had my current tank 6.5yrs and some fish within it for 14 from my previous tanks, with no disease at all within that period so I thought I’d got some pretty resistant fish however i posted this in my tank thread on Wednesday and it’s really shown me how on a knife edge our tanks can be...
    A disaster is unfolding before me... 2 weeks ago I made a decision I’m really regretting, a goldflake angel came up for sale from a local reefer, it’s one of my dream fish... my heart won over my head and I decided to go for it, as it had been in its current tank for over 2 yrs was fat and looked healthy. My head was telling me I was fully stocked and everything was happy and had been so for 6.5yrs... but I came back with the fish. Didn’t quarantine as it had been In his tank for a few years...Everything was fine for a day or 2 some bullying but nothing OTT, then my yellow tang went nuts, I’d upset the hierarchy and balance, sleeping caves etc. World war 3 erupted... then white spot emerged... So far I’ve lost the goldflake, pearlscale and 4 spot butterflies and 3 anthias... I’m currently feeding the hell out of the fish, added some bacteria, upper my V&V dose and have upped my AWC. My majestic angel, purple tang and sargassum trigger are covered but still active and feeding... 14 years I’ve been in this hobby and never experienced anything like this.... and self inflicted.. feel so dang guilty and stupid... cause of my rockwork it’s impossible to catch any of my fish and I think if I tried I’d stress them out even more and make matters even worse, so I’m trying to ride it out.... and crossing everything I have...
    Since this I’ve lost my last 2 anthias, my trigger looks terrible and my majestic angel has disappeared behind the rockwork... absolutely gutted at the moment.. I’m in new territory for me, I’ve never experienced anything like this and not sure of the best direction to go, it’s impossible to catch the remaining fish, a few still look resistant and ok, but not sure how all of this will pan out long term. Any thoughts or suggestions on how to move forward, if I hadn’t got so many half decent corals I’d be tempted to break it down, temporarily rehouse everything and start again but I think in my situation I might add coral losses to fish and make a crap situation even worse..
    This was the tank 3 weeks ago..
    AFC07370-C9C5-4A33-B082-429511A6C173.jpeg
     
  6. norfolkgarden

    norfolkgarden Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019

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    Please don't say that.
    "Last fish" is currently in acclimatization box.


    Very sorry to hear about your dead fish.
     
  7. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    It sounds like you are dealing with velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

    Unfortunately, there is no “reef safe” treatment that is going to 100% eradicate it. Running a large UV or diatom filter would probably be your best hope of managing symptoms.

    The herbal remedies are hit or miss: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-regarding-herbal-remedies.251560/
     
  8. Mortie31

    Mortie31 Valuable Member R2R Supporter UK Reef Club Member Build Thread Contributor

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    I had started thinking about velvet, but unfortunately it doesn’t really change much, I’ve backed myself into a hole either way by my landscape and by not being able to catch the remaining fish and hospitalise... are some fish resistant to velvet? Why would happen if some survived would it always be present in my tank and so I’d be unable to restock?
     
  9. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Fish with thick slime coats (e.g. wrasses, clownfish, mandarins) are naturally more resistant than tangs and other species with thin mucous layers for protection. Unfortunately, these immune/resistant fish often become asymptomatic carriers capable of infecting nonimmune fish. :(
     
  10. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Humble is correct (and I hate it when he is) :confused:
    Immune fish will not get any effects of the disease but I am sure they can transmit it to non immune fish. I am also sure my fish are carrying everything from Mononucleosis to Bubonic Plague but they are immune so it won't bother them, but I would rather not give fish away to someone with a non immune tank or Humble will cause me much pain. :rolleyes:
     
  11. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    In trying to create a new office tank with Ich eradication in mind, I have:
    - Started with dry rock – no live rock
    - Not used any equipment or tools from any other system (Ex: nets from use in QT system)
    - TTM the fishes that are going to go in
    - QT fishes done with TTM for a planned 40 days total (including TTM time)

    Would doing a FW dip before putting the QT’d fishes into new ich eradicated tank be overkill? Unnecessary stress on fish?

    Follow up question would be if I can FW dip multiple fishes in the same FW bucket? Or do I need a new temperature matched FW container for each fish going in? (I’ll have 9 fishes ready to go into DT when the 40 days are up.
     
  12. Kimberely

    Kimberely Active Member

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    I'm in tears. I recently had major surgery and was off work for 2 months and like a dummy I sold my quarantine tank so I could afford groceries. Tonight I noticed my kole tang has 3 white specks on him. He's eating like a pig and very active, but I did see him flash against the sand bed two consecutive times. He hasn't done it again and it seems I've caught it early. But with no current quarantine tank, and not able to buy another right away, I'm beyond scared. I put my UV sterilizer in and ordered some Ruby Reef kick ich. I'll start feeding nori daily instead of 3x weekly. Is there anything else I can do? Can I soak nori in some minced garlic from a jar? None of my other fish are affected so far. Please help. I know I've messed up.
     
  13. Fudsey

    Fudsey Jack of all trades R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor NHFS Member

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    Where are you @Kimberely ? Maybe someone could loan you a tank to setup as a qt? Ask at a LFS too. They usually have tanks they are not using and could let you use one in a pinch. I did when I had a light go out. Got an ATI 8 bulb T5 with bulbs to use from a LFS till my light was fixed. It can't hurt to ask around :)

    Good luck
     
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  14. Kimberely

    Kimberely Active Member

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    I'm in North central Arkansas. I'm sorry it took so long to reply. I just got home from purchasing a 29 gallon tank and a heater. I have spare filters already. It was as big as I could afford at the moment. The tang is only 4" long, but there's no way it'll hold all 13 of my fish. Still figured it would be better to get him isolated at least. I'm going to pull some of my live rock from my 125 gallon display to attempt to avoid to much of a cycle. Will 2 or 3 larger pieces be sufficient?
     
  15. Fudsey

    Fudsey Jack of all trades R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor NHFS Member

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    It should be more than enough for the tang plus any more you put in there. But remember if you go the copper route, that rock will need to come out before you treat as it will absorb the copper. You'll have to watch ammonia level closely and be prepared to do water changes if needed.
     
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  16. Kimberely

    Kimberely Active Member

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    Thank you! I'll do that.
     
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  17. kbderolf

    kbderolf Member

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    Hi there!
    Sorry to take so long to respond...but considering I have treated my dog, and seen several other non-humans treated with homeopathy, I don't know that I can subscribe to the "placebo" argument with homeopathy. But thanks for responding.
     
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  18. Huskymaniac

    Huskymaniac Well-Known Member

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    Count me as a new believer that ick or some other ick like parasite will always be present in our tanks. Yes I know about fallow periods but I literally broke down my SPS tank twice to get the fish out to treat them for ick. 1st time 30 days of copper measured with hanna checker and fallow display of 76 days days. Within a week the ick returned. Blamed it on a frag that I got from ORA 60 days prior to end of fallow period. On the second breakdown I killed half my fish and put them through 30 days of Copper, 30 days of prescription grade CP, and 2 weeks of Hypo metro treatment. Only half of my fish are back in the tank. The rest are still in QT because of persistent flashing but yesterday I noticed ick spots again on the fin of one of my cardinals. How is that even possible.
     
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  19. Subsea

    Subsea Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    @Paul B had it right 40 years ago, a healthy fish immune system prevents disease. Proper live food enhances immune system response with healthy gut cavity bacteria. Stress kills more fish because compromised immune system allows“ever present” pathogens to overcome immune system response.

    Live clams, mussels & oysters are readily available at seafood markets in most cities.
     
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  20. mav1ms

    mav1ms Member R2R Supporter

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    I am with you, I had been quarantining and treating, but somehow still had ich show up in my tank. I tried to catch all my fish. Those that I caught and put into my hospital tank ended up dying with the exception of my Purple Tang. My hospital tank was in good shape from a parameters perspective. I believe it was the stress of capturing and moving the fish that did them in (basically failure to thrive situation after moving). I never could capture my Blue Tang from my DT. So I did a lot of research on ich management. That all happened 8 months ago. When I saw that my PT was stressed, I moved him back to the DT and left things alone, he was covered in ich. I had purchased a couple pounds of black worms and started cultures of white worms. I also invested in a UV sterilizer and re-plumbed my system to ensure the that UV was at sterilization levels. I took a two prong approach, focus on the core health of my fish (feeding the worms made an incredible difference in color and even behavior) and then managing the levels of ich in my system. I introduced the UV sterilizer and then also treated the fish with Seachem Focus and Metroplex for approximately 3 weeks. The symptoms of ich did reappear during the 30 day period, but the second time around where I could see the dots they were significantly less. What should have been the next cycle I saw no other symptoms on any of my fish, including my BT and my PT. I run the UV 24/7/365. I have since introduced new fish; however rather than medicating the new fish I simply get the fish eating the worms in quarantine. Once they are eating I introduce them to the DT. I haven't had any of those fish become symptomatic with ich which I believe is still in my system. This method seems to be working for me, I am not saying it is a sure thing; however, I think there is something to be said about focusing on the fish health and ich management. To close this out I have had a couple of "stressor" events... power outages for extended lengths of time 12 hours and 8 hours. Temps fell in my tank, I have battery backup for my pumps (I also now have a generator). The fish never showed signs of symptoms and are thriving.
     
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