Ich eradication vs. Ich management

hotashes · Aug 22, 2018

Paul B said:
Yes, but you said it all so eloquently. [emoji57] But you can read this if you like

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

Humblefish said:
It's a combination of things, Paul. As with almost anything in life, it's never just one factor.

May I put a spanner in the works of the mystery in keeping ich out of our tank/fish.... The reverse under gravel filter being used in Paul's tank is driven by impeller shaft pump right? (I've not read the thread to find out)
Tank birthday, 40+ years

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh.../Tank-birthday,-40+-years.55423/&share_type=t

Given the downward pull into and through the substrate I would imagine in comparison to the tiny pathogen/trophont/tomont/theront surely they have difficulty avoiding the force of pull. So for as long as they release themselves from the fish to reproduce and begin the lifecycle surely they through the force of gravity drop towards the lower part of the tank! So getting back up amongst the water column where majority of fish hang out could be a struggle. I couldn't imagine a typical human being able to out-swim the force of a hurricane *grin*

Live feeding and quarantine certainly have a part to play in cure and prevention, but sometimes its the simple strategy that's overlooked. Thoughts?

A.

Paul B · Aug 22, 2018

Hotashes, that is a new one on me. I have been told my immune fish are from Ozone, skimmer, live food, mud from the sea, algae scrubber, luck, my fish are not the type that are suseptable and now my reverse UG filter.

They don't get sick because I keep them immune by allowing ich, black ich, velvet and the Black Death into my tank on purpose to get them immune so they never get sick. People come up with all sorts of scenarios, but my fish are immune, always have been and always will be as long as I don't quarantine and never keep sterile conditions.

hotashes · Aug 22, 2018

Paul B said:
Hotashes, that is a new one on me. I have been told my immune fish are from Ozone, skimmer, live food, mud from the sea, algae scrubber, luck, my fish are not the type that are suseptable and now my reverse UG filter.

They don't get sick because I keep them immune by allowing ich, black ich, velvet and the Black Death into my tank on purpose to get them immune so they never get sick. People come up with all sorts of scenarios, but my fish are immune, always have been and always will be as long as I don't quarantine and never keep sterile conditions.

It's only through seeing your incredible input to our hobby that your set up came to mind when I considered the theory. I have no proof to suggest my thoughts are right, however if tested it would be good to measure the chances of the parasite being able to survive the task of free swimming again a reverse under gravel filtration system (pump driven)

A.

Paul B · Aug 22, 2018

Sounds good to me.

You just need to convince my friend Humblefish. He believes it is due to my extraordinary good looks and the fact that I occasionally walk in front of my tank wearing a Speedo.

hotashes · Aug 22, 2018

Paul B said:
Sounds good to me. You just need to convince my friend Humblefish. He believes it is due to my extraordinary good looks and the fact that I occasionally walk in front of my tank wearing a Speedo.

Ha ha, my money would usually go on @Humblefish word... However this time it'll take some convincing before I up the ante.

Is it easier to get you in front of the tank in speedo than getting a copy of your published book here in the uk these days? *grin*

A.

Paul B · Aug 22, 2018

I actually wrote the book wearing my Speedo. It gives me inspiration.

hotashes · Aug 22, 2018

Paul B said:
I actually wrote the book wearing my Speedo. It gives me inspiration.

Too explicit Paul, I'd like a dry copy please [emoji6]

A.

Paul B · Aug 22, 2018

You need to order one. I am waiting for a Pulitzer from it. Then the price will go up.

hotashes · Aug 22, 2018

Paul B said:
You need to order one. I am waiting for a Pulitzer from it. Then the price will go up.

Can you not pass one onto humblefish to give me when he travels to the uk [emoji848]

You may also get a Pulitzer for being humble, I mean a nice guy *BigGrin*

A.

Humblefish · Aug 22, 2018

hotashes said:
May I put a spanner in the works of the mystery in keeping ich out of our tank/fish.... The reverse under gravel filter being used in Paul's tank is driven by impeller shaft pump right? (I've not read the thread to find out)
Tank birthday, 40+ years

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=1020&share_tid=55423&url=https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Tank-birthday,-40+-years.55423/&share_type=t

Given the downward pull into and through the substrate I would imagine in comparison to the tiny pathogen/trophont/tomont/theront surely they have difficulty avoiding the force of pull. So for as long as they release themselves from the fish to reproduce and begin the lifecycle surely they through the force of gravity drop towards the lower part of the tank! So getting back up amongst the water column where majority of fish hang out could be a struggle. I couldn't imagine a typical human being able to out-swim the force of a hurricane *grin*

Live feeding and quarantine certainly have a part to play in cure and prevention, but sometimes its the simple strategy that's overlooked. Thoughts?

A.

This is an interesting theory and certainly plausible. While I doubt every single free swimmer could get trapped down in the substrate before latching onto a fish, it's very possible the vast majority of them do. So, the infestation would be light/manageable. Maybe in time, dilution of the parasite could even make 100% eradication possible.

@Paul B Do you use air stones or powerheads to operate your UG filter? The latter would provide more "suction" pulling the parasites down into the substrate.

Of course, what prevents the free swimmers from making their way through the substrate, under the filter plate and then get blown back into the aquarium? Or with a reverse UG, just come back up through the substrate after being siphoned out...

Paul B · Aug 23, 2018

OMG. Another theory. Anyway, I use a powerhead. But remember the UG filter has been off for a couple of months so I would assume the parasites are just sleeping now because they still have not infected anything. I am also sure they are licking their lips (If parasites have lips) when they see that old copperband swimming by just waiting to latch on. (or the three new creatures I added last week including 2 fish) I also have been stirring my gravel almost every day to clean it because I have some hair algae dying on it and I try to net it out, so I am thinking I am waking up those parasites that are sleeping there. I am also certain that they are dreading the day I add another Ozonizer which has also been off for a few months.
There are just so many things keeping those parasites off my fish FOR 40 YEARS that it is mind boggling. Of course it can't be that my fish are immune as that would be silly.

Brew12 · Aug 23, 2018

Paul B said:
OMG. Another theory. Anyway, I use a powerhead. But remember the UG filter has been off for a couple of months so I would assume the parasites are just sleeping now because they still have not infected anything. I am also sure they are licking their lips (If parasites have lips) when they see that old copperband swimming by just waiting to latch on. (or the three new creatures I added last week including 2 fish) I also have been stirring my gravel almost every day to clean it because I have some hair algae dying on it and I try to net it out, so I am thinking I am waking up those parasites that are sleeping there. I am also certain that they are dreading the day I add another Ozonizer which has also been off for a few months.
There are just so many things keeping those parasites off my fish FOR 40 YEARS that it is mind boggling. Of course it can't be that my fish are immune as that would be silly.

Godzilla larvae are known to cause parasites to jump out of tanks in fear. Just sayin....

Humblefish · Aug 23, 2018

Paul B said:
There are just so many things keeping those parasites off my fish FOR 40 YEARS that it is mind boggling. Of course it can't be that my fish are immune as that would be silly.

The problem, old friend, is there are so many different things you do that it is hard to pin down which one(s) are most responsible for your success. Thus, making it hard to duplicate.

Is it feeding fresh seafood, live blackworms, fish oil? Is it running a reverse flow UG filter, Ozone, diatom filter? Or that mud you stole out of the Long Island Sound??

Paul B · Aug 23, 2018

Then do all of them. I also exfoliate.

Brew12 · Aug 23, 2018

Humblefish said:
The problem, old friend, is there are so many different things you do that it is hard to pin down which one(s) are most responsible for your success. Thus, making it hard to duplicate.

Is it feeding fresh seafood, live blackworms, fish oil? Is it running a reverse flow UG filter, Ozone, diatom filter? Or that mud you stole out of the Long Island Sound??

It's strictly my opinion, but it seems that the people who have the most success with ick management are also the ones with the most natural looking tanks (hammers excluded). It doesn't seem to work nearly as well for people who want a pristine glass showpiece.

Paul B · Aug 23, 2018

It won't work at all in a pristine showcase. But my tank isn't dirty and there is no detritus ever showing. If I cleaned up the hammers, bottles, cucumbers, chains, etc. It would look pretty natural.
I have not used my ozone or RUGF in a while. The RUGF is running but there is barely a trickle going through it, almost nothing as I have not connected my algae scrubber to it as it normally is.
It is also probable that older, successful tanks already have parasites in them so by default, the fish become immune. Fish will never be immune and will always be susceptible to diseases if they are kept from them.
I didn't make that up, Jerry Lewis did. Immune fish never, never, never get sick, not even a headache or acne. Fish kept away from all diseases, parasites and Liberals are always living on the edge of existence like the kid in the bubble. By the way, he died.
Scan the disease threads and see how many fish die in quarantine or right after.
Humble my good friend. I still love you. In a Manly sort of way.

Amado · Sep 1, 2018

Why is this ok ? Why are local fish store allowed to sell us sick fish? Why do I need to quarantine my fish and coral ? Why isn’t this done at the fish store ? I pay $200 for a sick fish then I have to buy medication to fix this fish. Why do I need to setup multiple tanks and quarentine tanks for fish and coral ? Who has time and space for this?
Most people leave the hobby when they get ick or velvet.

Ric365 · Sep 1, 2018

Amado said:
Why is this ok ? Why are local fish store allowed to sell us sick fish? Why do I need to quarantine my fish and coral ? Why isn’t this done at the fish store ? I pay $200 for a sick fish then I have to buy medication to fix this fish. Why do I need to setup multiple tanks and quarentine tanks for fish and coral ? Who has time and space for this?
Most people leave the hobby when they get ick or velvet.

it can separate who is serious reefers and not too serious.

Humblefish · Sep 1, 2018

Amado said:
Why is this ok ? Why are local fish store allowed to sell us sick fish? Why do I need to quarantine my fish and coral ? Why isn’t this done at the fish store ? I pay $200 for a sick fish then I have to buy medication to fix this fish. Why do I need to setup multiple tanks and quarentine tanks for fish and coral ? Who has time and space for this?
Most people leave the hobby when they get ick or velvet.

To be fair, QTing on a mass scale is a difficult and expensive process. Diseases don't always respond to the "standard treatments" and when one fish needs alternative treatment, all of his tank mates are along for the ride. If I'm lucky, I can successfully QT a batch of fish in just two weeks. But if complications arise it can sometimes take months before the fish are all clear. Every situation is different, and realistically not all fish are going to make it when complications arise. Most LFS cannot absorb those kind of losses and stay in business.