Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. ReefTeacher

    ReefTeacher Active Member

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    Romet has been around a LONG time. We used it extensively 20 years ago in the culture of Goldfish. It was available then prepared as a pellet feed and the fish took it readily. There are two things I would like to note:

    1) this was fresh water, and different experiences do apply. We treated separately for ich, using formalin and malachite green in those days. We so no effect of Romet on freshwater ich.
    2) the Romet we used I think was called SDMX-TMP.....which was trimethoprim, not ormetoprim. Could this make a difference?

    I just think that if such a common agent available in a commercial feed were effective, we would have know about it before now. Especially since the Romet feed was being used in aquaculture. But I do not recall any use in marine environments from those days....

    thoughts?
     

  2. Jose Mayo

    Jose Mayo Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Research and procedures evolve; this one pointed out above is relatively recent and refers directly to Cryptocaryon irritans, not to its freshwater analogue.

    According to the report, after controls by histopathological examination, the eradication of the parasite in the body of the evaluated fish was 100%.

    Best Regards
     
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  3. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    I'm probably going to get flamed for this but Ich Attack Kordon has worked for me in the past. My method was different than what it says on the bottle. I soaked my frozen mysis and brine shrimp in the ich attack and then i fed the fish. The fish that were affect, my blue hippo tang and my royal grama are still alive to this day and I owe it to Ich Attack as that is the only treatment I've used. I had to do this because I would have to tear down my whole tank and rockwork to catch the fish and it was going to be impossible. I think the ich came on a frag plug, because I had QT all my fish in a 20 gallon and treated with cupramine before I put them in my display. Anyways, Ich Attack worked for me..
     
  4. Fudsey

    Fudsey Jack of all trades R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018

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    As stated elsewhere, Ich Attack will relieve symptoms but will not eradicate it. It most likely will return. May take months but it is still in the tank.
     
  5. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    I'll keep you posted.. So far so good.. :)
     
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  6. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    My friend made a video of my tank for me. Here it is...

     
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  7. Fudsey

    Fudsey Jack of all trades R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018

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    Nice tank but what you have done basically is Ich management not eradication. With good husbandry and clean water you can keep it at bay. But as @Humblefish stated in the original post "just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it." A bad situation could bring it back. I hope it doesn't and you never have to see it again.
     
  8. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I hope so too. May the force be with us.
     
  9. Brandonsegula

    Brandonsegula Well-Known Member

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    Get dr. Gs anti parasitic food. Works wonders. I feed it every morning and then normal food at night. That’s how I managed and manage my the parasite in my tank.
     
  10. JasPR

    JasPR Active Member

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    D
    DB, its a great hobby. one we get a lot of observational confidence in. But some times there is correlation that is not causation. IN other words, we do something and see a result and 'hard wire' our thought as proof. Fair enough. Still, there are certain known biological dynamics here that push back on your observation. Parasites can be present without them becoming an infestation. Its good to try and eradicate all ich individuals in a system. But the enemy is not so much the individual parasite ( it struggles to survive too in our glass boxes). The enemy is a dynamic-- a stressed fish in phase one or phase two of General Adaptive Syndrome and the presence of a few parasites. In that dynamic the bugs get a foothold as the fish's natural immunity and slime coat depletion allow for an explosion in numbers. Fish with modest slime coats and GAS ( That syndrome mentioned above) are known to be like 'canaries in the coal mine' for early infestation episodes. I've been in the hobby for 40 years. to give you an idea, I attended the first MACNA in Toronto! So I don't know everything but I've experienced every mistake known to the hobby and now look at the science rather than the product. And even though much better products are available today, mother nature has not changed her dynamic of stress or parasite epizootic events one bit. I suspect you saw stress ich and it resolved itself without treatment. sometimes the presence of ich is an early warning of things to come-- much worse things-- or it comes and then goes-- never to gain a foot hold. We can't know which is which of course, only in hind sight. But if water quality is excellent and fish are established and you see a spot here or there on a susceptible species, every other day water changes, a low S.G. ( 1016-18), extra feeding of fresh or live foods and observation can be enough. Especially if you know that it was all triggered by some environmental and passing issue like a back up of overflow box crude into the display, or an overflowing of dirty skimmer cup, hours of power failure etc. The one good thing about chat sites like this is collective experience revealed. The one bad thing about chat sites like this is newbie observation in volume from many newbies -- especially about a new product or copy cat products. Time always tells if the next 'miracle in a bottle' is true or not. Until then, trust the scientific and know biological facts. That's why most long term hobbyists are actually forced to become amateur chemists, biologists, amateur micro biologists, master plumbers, zoologists and amateur veterinarians. Its a great hobby that rewards experience and humility.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  11. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    Okay so I didn't do anything for awhile....and allowed the ich to stay present while I was trying to figure out what to do, catch fish unsuccessful in catching the fish

    .... i finally treated with my method and then ich went away.... had I not done the treatment it would have continued its cycle with ich being on the fish....

    so no other changes made... that wasn't what fixed it??

    you're telling me it went away on its own? or would have went away on its own had I not acted????
     
  12. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Partner Member 2018 Partner Member 2019 North Alabama Reef Club

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    I can't speak for him, but these discussions tend to get communications crossed.

    The Ich isn't gone, it is just back under control. Does this distinction matter to someone practicing Ich management? Not at all. Does it matter to someone practicing Ich eradication? Yes.

    So by your goals, the Ich Attack worked well. If your goal had been total elimination of Ich from your system, it isn't going to work.

    The most important thing? You are happy with how it worked for you.
     
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  13. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    The only way this ich entered my tank was through a coral after a frag swap Just a reminder that even if you aren't adding fish, ich can come on a cleanup crew or coral...because I QTd and cupramine treated all my fish initially
     
  14. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you Brew
     
  15. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Partner Member 2019

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    Maybe it got in through osmosis. :rolleyes:
     
  16. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    Please explain. You are clearly more intelligent than I am.
     
  17. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Partner Member 2019

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    I certainly an not :rolleyes:

    It could only have come in 2 ways. Through that frag or the quarantine process wasn't thorough enough. I am not a fan of quarantine so you will need Humble for that. He can tell you how to clear a tank of it. I am also not a fan of that either so Humble would have to answer you. He will tell you to remove everything from the tank and leave no fish in there for 72 days (which I am also not a fan of) so listen to him. I will leave now so I don't screw up his procedure. :cool:

    Bobby, explain to him how to do that.
     
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  18. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Tomonts can encyst upon hard corals, shells, the exoskeleton of a crustacean, etc.

    The information pertaining to this was mostly derived from Dr. Peter Burgess 1992 thesis: https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10026.1/2632/PETER JOHN BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1

    The table (below) was taken from that publication and to my knowledge, is the only time Cryptocaryon attachment and cyst development has been studied on corals & inverts.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. rosshamsandwich

    rosshamsandwich Well-Known Member

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    Great info, thank you!
     
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  20. kbderolf

    kbderolf Member

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    So I have a question that I rarely see addressed...

    I believe in using homeopathy for many things. In many cases for worms or parasites the remedy suggested is Cina - it will actually kill out worms and cure without harming the person or animal that has it.
    From http://www.homeopathycenter.org/remedy/cina, "
    Cina
    Natural History.
    - The unexpended flower-heads (commonly called "seeds") of several varieties of Artemisia maritima. Semen cine.
    - Flores cine.
    - Artemisia Cintra. Wormseed. N. O. Composite. Tincture.
    Characteristics.
    - Cina is the source of the alkaloid Santoninum. It is pre-eminently a worm medicine, as it causes all the symptoms which characterize helminthiasis both mental, nervous, and bodily.
    - It corresponds more to the effects of lumbrici then to those of other worms.
    - There is irritation of the nose, causing constant desire to rub, prick, or press into it.

    The question is - would Cina (latin, common name is wormseed) work as well? Homeopathy works with the symptoms to help the life force actually fight the problem; so is it something that has ever been tried either positively or negatively to combat ich?

    Looking forward to hearing, as I know that I still have ich resident in my tank. Thanks :)
     
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