Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[becks]

I feel people say ich has not came back for quite a few years is wrong, just because ich may not have shown symptoms on the body, does not mean it's not behind the gills.

 

[Paul B]

I never liked the term Ich Management. The ocean uses Ich Management and the fish are fine. I call it a natural system and if you keep a natural system with healthy fish "fed correctly", with real food with real "live bacteria" in it, fish can be immune from "everything" except hooks.

I can do it and I am an old bald retired electrician so everyone can do it. Ick is a non issue in my house. My fish laugh at ich, they are laughing now and it is annoying. SHUT UP FISH!

 

[Humblefish]

The ocean uses Ich Management and the fish are fine. I call it a natural system and if you keep a natural system with healthy fish "fed correctly", with real food with real "live bacteria" in it, fish can be immune from "everything" except hooks.

If only we could replicate the ocean in our living room. Anyone who thinks they're truly doing that is just deluding themselves.

There are environmental factors in the ocean that we don't even understand. Every time I go scuba diving I am humbled, and realize I really don't know what I'm doing at all.....

 

[Jlentz]

If only we could replicate the ocean in our living room. Anyone who thinks they're truly doing that is just deluding themselves.

There are environmental factors in the ocean that we don't even understand. Every time I go scuba diving I am humbled, and realize I really don't know what I'm doing at all.....

Fwiw, I agree with Paul.
It helps that I can only read small bits and pieces of what you're writing though with that silly color tag.

 

[Humblefish]

It helps that I can only read small bits and pieces of what you're writing though with that silly color tag.

I'm doing you a favor then.

 

[Paul B]

If only we could replicate the ocean in our living room. Anyone who thinks they're truly doing that is just deluding themselves.

Hello my good Buddy Humble. If deluding themselves for forty years with never having a fish die from a disease, I am all for it.
If the tank lasts a few more years I will consider it a success. But I realize that many people will not recognize that if I can keep fish healthy for almost fifty years with no disease, I must be deluded and probably drinking to much Grand Marnier. I actually need a few more empty bottles of that to put in my tank so Bobby, if you are free come on over and we can get out my microscope to look for parasites on my fish. Or we can just sit around and talk about old times when all fish had ich and all Supermodels were,,,,,, well, not going out with me.

Fwiw, I agree with Paul.

Well Alright then. Someone finally agrees with me. I am amazed.

I just think that having healthy fish that never get sick is so much easier than all this medication stuff, but what do I know? I do miss those days of figuring out how to cure stuff. Not much but it was interesting.
Actually I am sitting here right now admiring my Steam punk porcupine fish. I was going to add some white spots on him to simulate ich, but I decided against it because he is copper and ich doesn't like that.

 

[Humblefish]

Hello my good Buddy Humble. If deluding themselves for forty years with never having a fish die from a disease, I am all for it.
If the tank lasts a few more years I will consider it a success. But I realize that many people will not recognize that if I can keep fish healthy for almost fifty years with no disease, I must be deluded and probably drinking to much Grand Marnier. I actually need a few more empty bottles of that to put in my tank so Bobby, if you are free come on over and we can get out my microscope to look for parasites on my fish. Or we can just sit around and talk about old times when all fish had ich and all Supermodels were,,,,,, well, not going out with me.

Paul, all I'm saying is it impossible to know all the factors which contribute to Ich Management in the ocean; let alone try to duplicate all of those unknown factors inside a glass box.

But what I really wanna know is whether or not you like my blue ink. Black ink sorta resembles cephalopod ink, and I had a bad experience with that one time.

 

[Baker Co.]

Ive had ich in my tank for over a year. Once in a while when a new fish is introduced it shows up again. Other then that everything is happy

 

[Paul B]

Bobby, I love your Blue ink. I like to use Green so it matches my emerald eyes.

 

[Paul B]

Bobby, Where did you go! Your not giving up are you? I want to know about the Russian Roulette thing and all that. I miss the days when you used to tell me I should take all my fish and quarantine them for 72 days.

OH NO! My purple fish are turning yellow. It must be Bubonic Plague, I hope I have Prizapro.

 

[kesh]

​

Ich management

• Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
• Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Hi Humblefish, i just wanted to clarify, how does the fish immune system keep it safe from ich? Is it from the slime coat being too thick that it prevents the parasite from penetrating through?
Also, i think i have practiced ich management of some sort in the past (if what i was having was indeed ich).
My fishes were bought from a trusted LFS (never loss a fish i bought from there) but i had always notice from every purchase, during the 1st week, that the fish will generally scratch. However, this behavior stopped and never seen after the fish had settled in and eating well (maybe two weeks after addition). The only time it re-occured was when there was a stressor event (ie i was rescaping some of my rocks). Yet, they stopped scratching after few days and all will be well without any interference from me.
Based on this, could this scratching be caused by ich or another parasite not deadly that it didnt cause death? (no white spots too)
Also, if your opinion is that it was ich, could then UV sterilisers be optional since i didnt had one but yet managed to get away?

 

[Humblefish]

Hi Humblefish, i just wanted to clarify, how does the fish immune system keep it safe from ich? Is it from the slime coat being too thick that it prevents the parasite from penetrating through?
Also, i think i have practiced ich management of some sort in the past (if what i was having was indeed ich).
My fishes were bought from a trusted LFS (never loss a fish i bought from there) but i had always notice from every purchase, during the 1st week, that the fish will generally scratch. However, this behavior stopped and never seen after the fish had settled in and eating well (maybe two weeks after addition). The only time it re-occured was when there was a stressor event (ie i was rescaping some of my rocks). Yet, they stopped scratching after few days and all will be well without any interference from me.
Based on this, could this scratching be caused by ich or another parasite not deadly that it didnt cause death? (no white spots too)
Also, if your opinion is that it was ich, could then UV sterilisers be optional since i didnt had one but yet managed to get away?

The mucous (slime) coat contains immunological defenses and this improves each time a fish survives an encounter with a particular parasite. Simply put, it is a battle of wills... Can the fish survive long enough to build up immunity to the pathogen which is afflicting it? Or will the disease kill the fish before immunity can be acquired? Fish with thick slime coats (e.g. clownfish, mandarins, wrasses) have an advantage, and parasites which attack in low numbers (ich) are much more "manageable" than those with higher concentrations of free swimmers in the water (velvet). Of course, the numbers game is really only relevant in a closed system as parasites in the ocean are naturally diluted.

This article provides more detailed information on skin defenses, and there are also studies which focus more on the gut. My good buddy @Paul B probably has some of the latter at his fingertips.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Important info that deserves a bump for those who need to read up on it.

 

[Paul B]

My good buddy @Paul B probably has some of the latter at his fingertips.

Yes, but you said it all so eloquently. But you can read this if you like

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

 

[Brew12]

Also, if your opinion is that it was ich, could then UV sterilisers be optional since i didnt had one but yet managed to get away?

Fish immunity comes in two broad categories, innate and adaptive, and both are important.

With this in mind, I consider UV sterilizers to serve 2 purposes. First is to limit parasite numbers to give the adaptive immunity in fish a better chance to adapt. This can happen if a new fish is added that hasn't been exposed to a parasite already in your tank or if you introduce a new parasite that your tank hasn't been exposed to. The stronger the innate immunity the better chance the fish has to survive for the adaptive immunity to kick in, but every little bit helps.
The second is an insurance policy against those stressor events. Fish can temporarily lose their adaptive immunity in as little as a few hours when stressed and can permanently loose it in a week. You've seen the results of moving rock, but it could be much worse if you had a heater failure, or had some toxin impact your water like a rusting magnet.

So, yes, a UV system is "optional" and you may be able to get away with not using one but you have reduced your chances of success.

 

[Humblefish]

As difficult as QT can be sometimes, I still feel it is the more "stable" approach in a controlled environment. So many variables to consider, so many wheels in motion, so many hit or miss anecdotal accounts, when it comes to disease management. Even those who implement it successfully oftentimes don't know exactly what it is about their system/methods which makes it work for them. They can explain their theories, but are they really telling you every little thing they do on a daily basis which may be helping to control parasites in their tank?

It sucks when you lose a fish in QT and it's easy to lose sight of the big picture (not infecting your DT.) And the naysayers will be quick to point out how you killed a "perfectly healthy fish" by doing quarantine; even though they have no idea whether or not the fish was, in fact, disease-free. But if you stay the course you will eventually end up with nothing but healthy fish in your DT that seem to live forever. At least that has been my experience since switching over to QT & disease eradication. I figure there’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

 

[Paul B]

They can explain their theories, but are they really telling you every little thing they do on a daily basis which may be helping to control parasites in their tank?

That is true, I forgot to mention how I bang chicken bones together above my tank every night while I am wearing a Speedo and doing the macarana at the same time. That seems to be the key factor as to scarring the ick out of my fish.

 

[Humblefish]

That is true, I forgot to mention how I bang chicken bones together above my tank every night while I am wearing a Speedo and doing the macarana at the same time. That seems to be the key factor as to scarring the ick out of my fish.

I was surprised to learn that you do use a diatom filter sometimes, which will siphon out the free swimming stage of most parasites. Before that I thought your methods mostly entailed nutrition/live foods.

Also (and I've got a good reason for asking this) ... Do your feeders release brine shrimp nauplii into the tank??

 

[Paul B]

Humble, How long do you know me? I have always said I use a diatom filter "once" a year for about an "hour" to stir up my substrait. In that time I probably suck out 3 or maybe 7 parasites. But eight billion stay in there.

And it is the same with new born brine shrimp. I hatch them every day and have been for decades. Now please don't tell me that brine shrimp naupli are the sworn enemy of ich parasites and they hunt them down to torture them before roasting them next to my heater, then digging into them with their antlers. I know for many years you have been trying to come up with some way to explain why my fish are immune besides the chicken bone/speedo thing. If the diatom filter theory or brine shrimp thing doesn't pan out you will ask me if there is a Radon gas leak next to my tank or if I collect my water near Love Canal or Chernobyl reactor in Russia.

I think you should put up that silly ich cycle chart so I can see exactly how long tromphants attach to fish, then fall off and hit their head on the bottom, and in 3 days they wake up all stupefied and again go out looking for fish because they are still seeing double because now they have a concussion from the fall. I know that is where you are going with this. My fish saw this and are laughing. SHUT UP FISH!

 

[Brew12]

Humble, How long do you know me? I have always said I use a diatom filter "once" a year for about an "hour" to stir up my substrait. In that time I probably suck out 3 or maybe 7 parasites. But eight billion stay in there.

And it is the same with new born brine shrimp. I hatch them every day and have been for decades. Now please don't tell me that brine shrimp naupli are the sworn enemy of ich parasites and they hunt them down to torture them before roasting them next to my heater, then digging into them with their antlers. I know for many years you have been trying to come up with some way to explain why my fish are immune besides the chicken bone/speedo thing. If the diatom filter theory or brine shrimp thing doesn't pan out you will ask me if there is a Radon gas leak next to my tank or if I collect my water near Love Canal or Chernobyl reactor in Russia.

I think you should put up that silly ich cycle chart so I can see exactly how long tromphants attach to fish, then fall off and hit their head on the bottom, and in 3 days they wake up all stupefied and again go out looking for fish because they are still seeing double because now they have a concussion from the fall. I know that is where you are going with this. My fish saw this and are laughing. SHUT UP FISH!

cough* cough* Ozone ;Troll