Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Bye bye freshwater R2R Supporter

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    Ok
    Does them eating indicate anything and how fast can it spread?
     

  2. Tahoe61

    Tahoe61 Moderator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Showcase Editor Build Thread Contributor Partner Member Partner Member 2018

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    It may have some influence on how severe the infection becomes, a healthy eating fish is probably more likely make it though the initial phase.

    Not my image.

    One has to understand the life cycle to effectively treat. Often the parasite is present and fish are not symptomatic, it may appear that the fish are no longer infected when in fact the parasite has simply fallen off the fish to continue it's life cycle in the substrate.

    upload_2016-9-16_10-0-31.jpeg
     
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  3. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Bye bye freshwater R2R Supporter

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    Is Paraguay a effective treatment or even dipping them for a hour effective as well
     
  4. Tahoe61

    Tahoe61 Moderator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Showcase Editor Build Thread Contributor Partner Member Partner Member 2018

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    I am going to assume you mean Paraguard? Based on the ingredients I would say no it's not an effective means of eradication. If you want to eradicate the parasite than you must consider the entire system. The parasite is not merely on the fish.
    How aggressively you decide treat is up to you, some hobbyist treat the outbreak and not the overall disease process, some hobbyist remove the fish and treat with copper in a quarantine tank leaving the display fallow for 72 days or more. There are other methods presented within this thread.
    It's important to note that the vast majority of in tank treatments are ultimately not effective and may be detrimental so choose carefully if you go that route.
     
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  5. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Bye bye freshwater R2R Supporter

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    Oh I agree with, I'm not going to treat the DT at all, I have invertebrates in there. To be honest I'm not sure it is ICH. I have two a royal gramma that had some spots on head forehead. I managed to catch him and put him in QT. Right now he's on his side and lethargic. I put paraguard in the tank with him. I have a chromis who started hanging with the gramma on the bottom of the tank. He shows no signs at all of ICH. I put him in the QT as well. There is no obvious signs of illness ( other than the six or so spots on the gramma. Which I don't see now) he's on his side not breathing heavy but rear end is folded over now
    The chromis is not swimming around in the QT
    I'll continue to watch them both and the DT
    I understand that paraguard dissipates in 24 hours? If so should I then add cupermine? Can I add any other med as well maybe prizopro


    Thank you so much for your help much appreciated
     
  6. Tahoe61

    Tahoe61 Moderator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Showcase Editor Build Thread Contributor Partner Member Partner Member 2018

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    The Royal Gramma is going to need PVC pipe to hide in otherwise the fish will become too stressed. Leave the lights off as well.

    Unfortunately I am not schooled in mixing medications or the latest products.

    An image would really help nail this down.

    I am sure when @Humblefish has a moment he'll chime in.
     
  7. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Bye bye freshwater R2R Supporter

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    I do have pvc in there now. He was swimming around but now back on his side. The chromis is screwed up he's by the gramma ( been following it. But is going around in circles over and over again constantly not stopped on his side
     
  8. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    I agree with @Tahoe61; photos of the affected fish are needed to make a further determination.
     
  9. Bob Escher

    Bob Escher Bye bye freshwater R2R Supporter

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    This is what they look like now still moving but kinda stuck
    They died but here is a pic

    IMG_0553.JPG

    IMG_0553.JPG
     
  10. Clownfiish

    Clownfiish Member

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    I lost 2 fish 1 clownfish and 1flame angel until I learned my lesson. Don't try to cure Ich. Just kill them by moving your fish to a separate tank !! You will save money rather than lose it. Great post strongly agree
     
  11. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    ??? :confused:
     
  12. re76

    re76 Well-Known Member PMAS Member

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    I'm working on starting a new tank, my first actually, and I want to take the ich eradication path. How do you handle the CUC and corals?

    From my understanding so far, I would have to put anything that goes into my tank, including CUC and corals, through either a round of TTM OR a 72 day fallow period.

    Is this true or am I missing something?
     
  13. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    Parasite tomonts can encyst to any hard surface: SPS/LPS corals, a snail or hermit shell, exoskeleton of a crustacean, etc.

    The only workaround I've found to alleviate this threat is to house these animals in a fishless environment for 76 days (same as going fallow). With this in mind, I setup a simple 29 gal fishless frag tank (photos below) which I also use as a grow out tank. It doesn't need a sump or even a skimmer necessarily. Just cheap T5 (or LED) lighting, Koralia powerhead, HOB powerfilter, heater/thermometer, and a frag rack gets the job done. ;) You could do the same using even just a 10 gal. You would really only need a rock or two for biological filtration (corals/inverts don't produce much waste), and even sand is optional.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. re76

    re76 Well-Known Member PMAS Member

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    So my quarantine supplies so far are:

    2x 10 gal tank + heater + air stone + thermometer + ammonia alert
    1x 30 gal tank + sponge filter + small powerhead + heater + ammonia alert

    My plan was to use the two 10 gal tanks for TTM, and then the 30 gal as a post TTM observation tank, and as a hospital QT when not being used for observation. I am already starting to run out of room in my basement for fish stuff, and don't think I have room for another tank, unless it is 10 gallon.

    I suppose I could add CUC and corals to my DT then hold off on fish for 76 days, but that doesn't really sound great either.

    I would really prefer to avoid the 76 day fishless route if that is possible. Is it possible to do TTM on inverts and Corals? Assuming I had some T5 lights I could put the coral under during TTM.

    Now that I am thinking about this, could TTM for corals and inverts be less than 4 transfers since we can make the assumption that there are no trophonts and only tomonts and theronts?
     
  15. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    TTM works on fish because they carry the trophont stage of the parasite, and that remains 3-7 days before dropping off. So, that phase of the life cycle is somewhat predictable.

    Corals/inverts, on the other hand, carry the tomont stage which has a 3 - 72 day cyst period (dependent upon strain & temperature). Due to the unpredictability of this stage TTM cannot be used; only "waiting it out" in a fishless environment will work.
     
  16. re76

    re76 Well-Known Member PMAS Member

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    Ah that makes sense. Thanks for elaborating, definitely learning as I go!
     
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  17. Bryce Peterson

    Bryce Peterson Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    Great write-up. I admit that I was not one to quarantine my fish in the past and I'm paying dearly for it now. Probably going to be watching sponges grow in my dt for the next 76 days. As a result, I have come to a realization that not quarantining our critters is, in itself, a bit cruel. Ich management has worked for me, until now. However, what that means to me now, is that I am willing to allow a fish to live with a treatable condition and spread it to other fish. People can live with Polio, but all-but eradicating it in the developed world was the right thing to do and has spared countless numbers of people from unnecessary suffering. As soon as I have the opportunity, my remaining fish are going into a qt and treated for ich.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
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  18. Brandonsegula

    Brandonsegula Well-Known Member

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    This was great!
     
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  19. JasPR

    JasPR Well-Known Member

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    For fish tanks only--- keep your SG at 2016-2018. Keep a half dose cupramine in tank for 30 days on each time you add a fish ( dip fish first and treat separately with anti-fluke compound). Do weekly water changes and if you are protecting a valuable stock/collection ( $$$$$) and have the time, do that 10% water change daily for a week every time you add new fish. Always adding cupramine in the prepared water ( 2016 SG and 1/2 dosed with cupramine. Check the cupramine levels every few days. Keep skimmer running as that red algae on coral will likely die off. I do this routine twice a year when stocking new fish. 2 years running, three fish have been lost in a collection of 40 fish in two years. Pomacanthus angels ( four), Centropygi angels ( 7) hippo tangs ( ich magnets) 3, yellow tangs 4, heniochus 3, niger triggers 3, anthius 3, clowns 2, Marine betta 1, fiji devils 6, orange tail devil 1, talbot damsels 3, bluefin damsel 2. Any outbreak in-between these two annual prophylactic treatment routine ( or an odd purchase) is treated exactly the same way-- mild on the fish, effective and safe. The thing to understand about ectoparasites beyond the life cycle is they are omni present in coral marine fish and cross infested in holding facilities ( a game of Russian roulette). the stages can survive in fish vents, in heavily mucous gills and deep depressions in body lines. These will ALWAYS show up when there is stress in the environment-- power failure, aggression, Nitrate rise, ammonia jump, skimmer overflow or back flow etc. another much neglected consideration is feeding-- feed your fish well and with a varied diet. It fuels the immune system. fish can build a resistance to ich as a previous infestation is an inoculation memory for the immune system. That feeding however requires regimented water changes-- 10% weekly is best and 10% daily in a crisis. IMHo of course, JasPR
     
  20. Charles Weller

    Charles Weller Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Just wanted to thank @Humblefish and @Paul B for all of the information. I've had aquariums for the past 30 years, mostly freshwater, and just started with salt water about 1 1/2 years ago. I have to say that when I setup my first saltwater tank I was arrogant enough to think I knew what I was talking about and was quickly proven wrong. I have learned a lot since then thanks to them and many others here.
     
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