Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    @Charles Weller One of the reasons I love this hobby is because the learning never stops, no matter how long you've been doing this. :)
     

  2. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Charles, I am still arrogant, I have to be to talk to Humble. :rolleyes:
    I still do stupid things, still have floods, still have fish jumping out (I found a flasher wrasse on the floor this morning) and still buy fish I can't feed. But I love this hobby and will be in it when I am on the wrong side of the grass. :eek:
    We are all still learning and will never know everything. :cool:
     
  3. becks

    becks Well-Known Member

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    I just released my peacock wrasse back into my display tank yesterday after going fallow....and in the end I treated her in QT with cupramine, she has always been a great fish, she only went into hiding after a few days when I initially got her while eating frozen from the start, then she was not bothered one bit during cupramine for 30 days still maintaining her greedy appetite..when I released her yesterday she went straight into the sand and has been out all day today eating well as if nothing had happened.

    One thing I've noticed is in her behaviour, previously when I had ich in my tank her and the inhabitants seemed more stressed or swam more actively, whether that's because the irritation from ich or maybe decreased ability to breath oxygen through their gills so they swim faster I'm not sure, but she's more relaxed and cruises gently around my tank.

    It's also great to have my favourite fish back :)

    Had anyone noticed similar behaviour differences after having ich in their tank?
     
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  4. will424

    will424 Well-Known Member

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    If one is doing ich management for years and sees no signs of ich, how is it possible that ich would still survive? Do they stay dormant for years?
     
  5. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I've noticed that disease-free fish tend to be more active, are more likely to engage with their human owner and stay out in the open; whereas sick fish remain hidden or stay behind the rocks.
     
  6. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    A given strain of ich will die out after about 4 years, on average. However, if you introduce a new strain of ich from not QTing the cycle starts all over.
     
  7. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    In an ich managed system the ich don't stay dormant. They continue to feed on the fish. The natural immunity of the fish reduces the size the parasites can grow to so you don't see the visible signs. This also limits their ability to reproduce so there are fewer parasites in an ich managed system. Ideally, there aren't enough on any single fish at any given time to cause them health issues.
     
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  8. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    The ocean has an Ich Management system which runs along just fine. :rolleyes:
     
  9. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Until you go and steal all the cool little bugs out of it! :eek:
     
  10. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    With also a gazillion gallons of water to dilute the parasites. ;) The largest aquarium in the world is only 6.3 million gallons. ;Wideyed
     
  11. Paul B

    Paul B Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yes I know, that's my sump. :p
     
  12. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    Nice to know this.
     
  13. Ashish Patel

    Ashish Patel Well-Known Member

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    When I was a new hobbyist dealing with ich was a challenge. Overtime I learned that the first step is to not Panic! get ahead of the problem before it escalates. Sometimes your more than likely to kill these fish from stressing them out with useless freshwater dips and jail cell like QT tanks (I've done all these and probably kills more fish by using things like Formalin products from the LFS). I do not lose fish very often anymore but 20 years ago almost 80% of my fish would die from ich and other parasites. Then again back then I was adding butterflyfish and tangs to a 29 gallon they had no business going in.

    I tried every method in the book and never had success until I learned about UV filter, RO/DI, fish diet, fish species, and good biological filter. I strongly believe in my case I will lose my fish faster If I try to remove them and QT them all. I do believe in some cases its more important to know how to act in a given situation. for example, if a fish stop eating you have to remove it because chances are its already dead. If I see a few spots I slow down the water flow in my UV, start feeding more nori., I stir up the sand bed and increase the return flow. lastly, I do not add fish to a tank after initial setup regardless of how empty it may look. Other than tangs I try to purchase only hardy fish.
     
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  14. Scarybo

    Scarybo Well-Known Member Partner Member 2018

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    I understand the concept of not reacting too fast and without a plan, but I dont understand your treatment plan. UV filter, RO/DI, fish diet, fish species, and good biological filter will not in my experience eliminate an ich outbreak. It falls under ich management which is fine as long as you understand the risks. It is something I practiced in the past. I was always aware if I added new fish or stressed the tank, I could have an outbreak. What is the science behind your method? I'm not attacking, I just want to understand your theory.
     
  15. Ashish Patel

    Ashish Patel Well-Known Member

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    I am saying that I strongly believe that Ich can be initially managed and eradicated in time but takes some experience (overcrowding is the number one reason why people have ich outbreaks but never is this discussed). I had ich show up on my blue tang 10 years ago and noticed spots appear on this fish only. After seeing the spots I did not add any new fish just focused on keeping the fish immune system strong and hoped for the best. I believe the ich eventually went dormant and eventually died not having a weak host to feed on.. So I am not saying QT is not good I know its good and wish I QT all my fish. The goal is to make sure the fish never get to a point where the ich overpowers them inside out - sometimes you QT a healthy fish will cause it stress resulting in it being more susceptible to diseases later. Back when my fish got ich their was all these talks on garlic guard so I just figured if i can take away the host Ich would be gone.. I was not aware of how the life cycle is but my blue and yellow tang are still alive and have never had ich for 8+ years now.

    1915224_567291561495_7557321_n.jpg
     
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  16. Ashish Patel

    Ashish Patel Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a current picture of the tangs but this was after few years. After I transferred everything to a larger system I never saw ich symptoms again and the blue tang never lost its appetite:)

    44801_599676242335_2120221_n.jpg
     
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  17. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Nowadays, Ich is much less of a concern than Amyloodinium (Marine Velvet Disease). That disease is everywhere right now (new fish purchases) and is far more difficult to manage.
     
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  18. Scarybo

    Scarybo Well-Known Member Partner Member 2018

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    Thank you for the explanation. I thought you were talking about eradication. You are referring to ich management. Ich can stay in your system for many years with no symptoms. The fish develop a form of immunity and the parasite is unable to reproduce in numbers that result in symptoms and an outbreak but it is still there. I had a tank that I managed this way. The only way I have been taught to eradicate the parasite is to remove all fish to QT and allow the tank to go fallow for 76 days.
     
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  19. Ashish Patel

    Ashish Patel Well-Known Member

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    Agreed...Unlike Ich Velvet can't be managed!
     
  20. Ashish Patel

    Ashish Patel Well-Known Member

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    Thats probably the best method to Eradicate Ich but It can be eradicated on its own just takes a longer and more careful care. below is my first Saltwater tank (you can see how proud I was n 1997 at age 12) - 29 gallon tank, fluval filter, sand and tap water. Pretty much 80% of the fish I got would get ich or some other unknown disease at the time and die. I desperately tried to diagnose the problem but had limited resources. I would remove the fish and dip them in freshwater, put them in QT tanks. and they would just die faster. I later gave up for a year and went to freshwater. When I setup my 55gallon I never witnesses a fish die as they did in my first setup. The first setup was a death trap and caused the fish to become weak and immune to all types of parasite.. Who know if ich is just floating in the air ready to jump in lol.... Ok I have said enough - bottom line is "ich is not a death sentence"!

    IMG_2142.jpg
     
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