ICH update!

[AlexVic]

So a couple of days ago I saw 2 of my fish had ich. I tried fishing them out but was unsuccessful. Now my goby is completely spotless ,my royal gramma is out in the open like normal, and all my other fish look completely normal. I did buy a UV sterilizer but it got delayed until today. Is it still worth using and what other procedures should I take now?

 

[Fish Fan]

I think you'll get a lot of replies, and I'm going to offer just a few thoughts - not that I am an expert, but because I follow many, many threads here at R2R about disease diagnosis and treatment.

I remember you had asked about a reef safe Ich cure, and I personally don't think one exists. If it's "reef safe" it's likely "Ich safe"

It's not clear to me if you had the Ich diagnosis confirmed by the R2R Fish Medic crew, but if you did in fact have Ich, just because your fish appear clear right now does not mean that Ich is not still in your system (it is!), and can make itself quite well known if given the right circumstance, such as an event that stresses your fish. Ich also follows a natural life cycle where it can appear to come and go on the fish, yet if you watch closely each cycle gets worse and worse as the parasites continue to reproduce.

For this reason, if you've had an outbreak of Ich, I would suggest that you treat all fish in a separate, copper medicated QT tank, or run the display tank at a lower salinity (hyposalinity), with the obvious exceptions that would include copper or salinity sensitive fish or other tank mates.

A UV Sterilizer is a form of Ich management that can be useful at keeping Ich at bay in a tank infected with Ich, but with otherwise healthy (asymptomatic) fish. A UV sterilizer is not said to be effective at "curing" an active Ich outbreak, from the R2R disease experts. And, it's important to "tune" the flow through the UV to increase its efficacy when using it for Ich management.

Likewise, there's much talk on the forum about feeding a premium diet with a variety of live and ultra fresh foods, many of which would be unavailable to the average reefer, in an effort to to stave off fish parasites. While I believe there's tremendous value in providing such a diet, it's not in my humble opinion a "cure" when there's a visible outbreak of Ich. To me, this is a little like feeling chest pains and a numbness in your left arm, and then shining maybe it's time to mix in a salad.... too little, too late

Again, these are just some of my thoughts from having watched a lot of the disease threads here at R2R, I look forward to hearing other members thoughts here

 

[Subsea]

My attitude toward parasites is:
parasites will always be there.

Considering that your fish show no symptoms, you can assume that fish slime is primary protection against itch and you can assume that itch is dormant in your system. When this happened to me, the system was 10 years mature. I did nothing and that was 15 years ago.


Provide gut cavity bacteria health with proper diet & remove stress.

Fish slime: An answer to antibiotic resistance?

When @Paul B is asked about what is his proof concerning his “no quarantine” policy for fish, aside from a successful tank after 50 years, his counter is “Look at all the threads on disease forums”. So, when I found this peer reviewed article addressing natural immunity response of marine fish...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Euphyllia97]

The parasite goes through cycles in which they detach from the fish making you believe that they are doing better or they are getting immune to the disease. Unfortunately…. The parasite detaches and becomes a tomont after which they will “hatch” and reinfect your fish with a greater number. I would suggest now that the dots are gone, to put ALL fish in a sterile qt to treat with copper for 30 days, followed by an observation period of 2-3 weeks. Your tank can in the meantime run fallow for the recommended 45-60 days.

This is the only way that will get rid of ich. (Note that even 30 days in therapeutical levels of copper doesn’t provide a 100% succes rate).

I refer to fish fans comment :) 100% agree so nothing to add.

Nutrition and UV will not cure. It helps to manage the free-swimming stages of the parasite and boost the immunity. But in this case with symptoms already seen, I would highly recommend treatment and erradication with fallow period.

Do you have pictures? Was it already identified as Ich by our fish medics? A lot of other things that look like ich or a mix might be happening.

 

[AlexVic]

The parasite goes through cycles in which they detach from the fish believing you that they are doing better or they are getting immune to the disease. Unfortunately…. The parasite detaches and becomes a tomont after which they will “hatch” and reinfect your fish with a greater number. I would suggest now that the dots are gone, the best is to put ALL fish in a sterile qt to treat with copper for 30 days, followed by an observation period of 2-3 weeks. Your tank can in the meantime run fallow for the recommended 45-60 days.

This is the only way that will get rid of ich. (Note that even 30 days in therapeutical levels of copper doesn’t provide a 100% succes rate).

I refer to fish fans comment :) 100% agree so nothing to add.

Nutrition and UV will not cure. It helps to manage the free-swimming stages of the parasite and boost the immunity. But in this case with symptoms already seen, I would highly recommend treatment and erradication with fallow period.

Do you have pictures? Was it already identified as Ich by our fish medics? A lot of other things that look like ich or a mix might be happening.

Here’s some pictures I was able to get. I only have a video of the gramma scratching himself because when I turned on the white lights he hide in caves.
Also Ill get new pictures today since he’s out in the open like normal again

 

[Euphyllia97]

Here’s some pictures I was able to get. I only have a video of the gramma scratching himself because when I turned on the white lights he hide in caves.
Also Ill get new pictures today since he’s out in the open like normal again

@vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal

 

[Subsea]

The parasite goes through cycles in which they detach from the fish making you believe that they are doing better or they are getting immune to the disease. Unfortunately…. The parasite detaches and becomes a tomont after which they will “hatch” and reinfect your fish with a greater number. I would suggest now that the dots are gone, to put ALL fish in a sterile qt to treat with copper for 30 days, followed by an observation period of 2-3 weeks. Your tank can in the meantime run fallow for the recommended 45-60 days.

This is the only way that will get rid of ich. (Note that even 30 days in therapeutical levels of copper doesn’t provide a 100% succes rate).

I refer to fish fans comment :) 100% agree so nothing to add.

Nutrition and UV will not cure. It helps to manage the free-swimming stages of the parasite and boost the immunity. But in this case with symptoms already seen, I would highly recommend treatment and erradication with fallow period.

Do you have pictures? Was it already identified as Ich by our fish medics? A lot of other things that look like ich or a mix might be happening.

What you have said here is no different than 30 years ago when the fallow period was 7 days. Now it’s 76 days, depending on who you talk to. Go figure
.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Here’s some pictures I was able to get. I only have a video of the gramma scratching himself because when I turned on the white lights he hide in caves.
Also Ill get new pictures today since he’s out in the open like normal again

Video very short and dark (best at 20 seconds and using bright white light intensity - No Blue) and on goby, Im not sold on ich as ich will increase in number every 24 hours and look more like lymphocystis which is viral.
76 days was an old rule for fallow now being 6-8 weeks.

 

[Euphyllia97]

What you have said here is no different than 30 years ago when the fallow period was 7 days. Now it’s 76 days, depending on who you talk to. Go figure
.

From what I have read in papers the 76 days is not really relevant as it has a lot to do with the water temperature and strain of the parasite. 45 - 60 days is now the guideline supported by scientific research. I would stick to that :)

 

[Subsea]

From what I have read in papers the 76 days is not really relevant as it has a lot to do with the water temperature and strain of the parasite. 45 - 60 days is now the guideline supported by scientific research. I would stick to that :)

The point is that fallow period keeps changing to account for ich reinfestation.
So, I question the scientific research you refer to in a similar manner that you ignored fish slime research.

 

[Euphyllia97]

Alex,
No need for expert. Itch is in your system.

What are you going to do? To catch all fish, drain all but 2” of display tank water and remove fish to treatment system.

The point is that fallow period keeps changing to account for inch reinfestation.

As he is not running a huge public aquarium. Yes, I would suggest to get all of his fish out and in treatment. To run fallow for a 45-60 days (which is scientifically backed up with the newest data). If it changes next month with new evidence, I will gladly revise my advice.
No need to drain the tank. Total erradication is never a guarantee as indeed the parasite can still lay dormant in certain conditions. But why not maximize the odds?

If anyone wants to take the chance and leave the fish in the tank and manage the ich by good nutrition, UV, husbandry. I’m not against it, it is up to you, but I am just giving advice on what is the standard medicated way to treat this.

Fact is that his fish were showing signs of illness and I believe in the opinion of experts who have been dealing with all sorts of diseases on a professional levels. It all starts with a correct Identification. Just my two cents.

Edit: I will have a read on fish slime research! Thanks for that input

 

[AlexVic]

As he is not running a huge public aquarium. Yes, I would suggest to get all of his fish out and in treatment. To run fallow for a 45-60 days (which is scientifically backed up with the newest data). If it changes next month with new evidence, I will gladly revise my advice.
No need to drain the tank. Total erradication is never a guarantee as indeed the parasite can still lay dormant in certain conditions. But why not maximize the odds?

If anyone wants to take the chance and leave the fish in the tank and manage the ich by good nutrition, UV, husbandry. I’m not against it, it is up to you, but I am just giving advice on what is the standard medicated way to treat this.

Fact is that his fish were showing signs of illness and I believe in the opinion of experts who have been dealing with all sorts of diseases on a professional levels. It all starts with a correct Identification. Just my two cents.

Edit: I will have a read on fish slime research! Thanks for that input

The problem for me regarding the fallow treatment is that I have 12 fish in my system and have no where else to put them. Maybe if it was only 4 I could set up another tank but as it’s winter my family is using heaters, humidifier, and soon Christmas lights too. All the switches in my breaker would flip If it was during spring or summer it would be possible since my family doesn’t use as much electricity and the heaters in the tank run less.

I’m just gonna have to depend on good husbandry and the uv sterilizer to help my fish

 

[Euphyllia97]

The problem for me regarding the fallow treatment is that I have 12 fish in my system and have no where else to put them. Maybe if it was only 4 I could set up another tank but as it’s winter my family is using heaters, humidifier, and soon Christmas lights too. All the switches in my breaker would flip If it was during spring or summer it would be possible since my family doesn’t use as much electricity and the heaters in the tank run less.

I’m just gonna have to depend on good husbandry and the uv sterilizer to help my fish

Difficult situation indeed… In that case there is a good topic on this forum on “Ich management”. Have a good read and hopefully your fish’s immune system will be able to cope with the parasite :) As people have already said, which to be clear I do not deny at all. Ich is not always lethal and good care, nutrition and UV can definitely keep it in check. Good luck!

 

[Subsea]

Alex,
Go to fish market and get live clams, oysters or mussels and feed your fish well. Also, know that display tank invertebrates will eat free swimming torments: anemones, lps, sea apples and sponges feed on POC (larvae).

 

[AlexVic]

Alex,
Go to fish market and get live clams, oysters or mussels and feed your fish well. Also, know that display tank invertebrates will eat free swimming torments: anemones, lps, sea apples and sponges feed on POC (larvae).

So you recommend feeding them one of these foods once a day?

 

[Subsea]

So you recommend feeding them one of these foods once a day?

My fish are pigs. I feed them twice a day. For certain, invertebrates fly their colors when clam juice gets in the water.

Yesterday, I was surprised to see mandarin grab mussel flesh. It took him 10 minutes to consume. This fish is 5 years in tank living on copepods and worms.

PS: know this about shelf life of live bivalves: use them up within a few days. If the shell is slightly open don’t use them unless they close when you handle them. Because I eat raw clams & oysters, I trust my sense of smell.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here’s some pictures I was able to get. I only have a video of the gramma scratching himself because when I turned on the white lights he hide in caves.
Also Ill get new pictures today since he’s out in the open like normal again

The goby does look to have ich. In gobies, the spots are larger than in other fish, I'm not sure why.

I can't see any spots on the gramma, just the scratching. Ich doesn't cause heavy scratching, but flukes do. Grammas are really susceptible to flukes, so you *might* have a concurrent infection.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What you have said here is no different than 30 years ago when the fallow period was 7 days. Now it’s 76 days, depending on who you talk to. Go figure
.

I never heard of a 7 day fallow period. 40 years ago, we would "burn out" ich at 86 degrees for 21 days. The Colorni paper that mentions the 76 day period was from 1997. That time frame was for Cryptocaryon tomonts held at lower temperatures in xeric (bacteria free) water. He even said that 76 days was not likely to be required in "real world" scenarios. Still, some people embraced that time frame. My own experience shows that 60 days is sufficient and even 45 days works at 81F.

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com