Ich X okay for butterfly fish?

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

sounds like the AB bucket is trying to get rid of the free swimming parasite by replacing water 100% on a daily basis? How do you avoid stressing out the fish?

That is a technique called "TTM", or Tank Transfer Method. It has some major drawbacks. I stopped using it back in the 1980's. Here are the issues:

1) Buckets don't work, you need a clear sided container so that you can view the fish.
2) Handling the fish every other day is very stressful.
3) Ammonia builds up faster than you anticipate, and may require additional water changes.
4) If the fish came from an infected tank, you will need a ich free tank to move them into for 50 days or so.

 

[kevin-aa]

sounds like the AB bucket is trying to get rid of the free swimming parasite by replacing water 100% on a daily basis? How do you avoid stressing out the fish?

Try not to disturb it too much. For the bucket, use a dark-colored one and make sure to put a lid on it to prevent fish from jumping out. I don't have any experience keeping butterflyfish, but I've seen on TikTok that butterflyfish are very sensitive to medications, so the AB桶 (transfer method / two-bucket method) might be a good approach. I don't know how you guys treat marine ich (white spot) here in the US — you might want to do some research on the forums. I just registered on a forum yesterday myself. Back in my area, we usually treat ich with either the AB bucket method or copper medication. Personally, I've tried both methods, and honestly, I don't think ich needs much treatment. As long as the environment is stable and you don't add new fish too often, the ich will go away on its own. The most important thing for a marine aquarium is still stability."

 

[kevin-aa]

That is a technique called "TTM", or Tank Transfer Method. It has some major drawbacks. I stopped using it back in the 1980's. Here are the issues:

1) Buckets don't work, you need a clear sided container so that you can view the fish.
2) Handling the fish every other day is very stressful.
3) Ammonia builds up faster than you anticipate, and may require additional water changes.
4) If the fish came from an infected tank, you will need a ich free tank to move them into for 50 days or so.

"Thank you for your reply. That's exactly right.
First, i usually use an opaque container, like a salt bucket, to hold the fish.
Second, it does cause a lot of stress — that's true. But i don't disturb them too often; i just check on their condition from time to time.
Third, you're right about ammonia. But if you feed very little, and promptly siphon out the waste with a turkey baster or siphon tube, and do a water change once a day, it's actually manageable.
Fourth, I personally have given up on treating ich because I think it's very hard to avoid. However, I've heard that in the US there is something like a PCR test for marine ich — you can test anything that might carry ich and detect it. So maybe in the US it's truly possible to have an ich‑free tank. I feel that once a tank is stable, ich is unlikely to appear."

 

[kevin-aa]

That is a technique called "TTM", or Tank Transfer Method. It has some major drawbacks. I stopped using it back in the 1980's. Here are the issues:

1) Buckets don't work, you need a clear sided container so that you can view the fish.
2) Handling the fish every other day is very stressful.
3) Ammonia builds up faster than you anticipate, and may require additional water changes.
4) If the fish came from an infected tank, you will need a ich free tank to move them into for 50 days or so.

"Wow, I just realized you're a moderator! That's awesome. I'm using a translator to reply and read messages. I just registered on the forum yesterday. I'm not an expert — I just saw this post and used AI to translate my thoughts. Please feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes!"“哇，我才发现你是版主！太厉害了。我是用翻译工具来回复和看消息的。我昨天才刚在论坛注册。我不是专家——我只是看到了这个帖子，然后用人工智能把我的想法翻译了出来。如果我有什么错误，欢迎随时指正我！”
To be honest, i still use the AB bucket method quite often to treat marine ich, because it doesn't require any medication — it just takes more time. As for using copper treatment, on one hand you might end up buying fake copper medication, and on the other hand, incorrect dosing can kill the fish. Of course, this is just the my personal opinion ，I've tried both the AB bucket method and copper-based treatments, and I still recommend the AB bucket method because it doesn't involve medication. Copper treatment is quite expensive — you need to buy test kits and carefully manage the dosage — it's very easy to mess up. With the AB bucket method, you don't have that problem at all."

 

[gabriellar]

Update: this butterfly fish with ich also develops a white cloudy eye, as in the attached new video. Suspect it is still resulted from ich? This fish previously had broken skin due to scratching on the rock. Is this some sort of bacteria affection? Do I need to add antibiotics? Currently under copper power dosing.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: this butterfly fish with ich also develops a white cloudy eye, as in the attached new video. Suspect it is still resulted from ich? This fish previously had broken skin due to scratching on the rock. Is this some sort of bacteria affection? Do I need to add antibiotics? Currently under copper power dosing.

Are both eyes cloudy, or just the right eye? Is the fish still feeding?

This looks like either fluke damage or mechanical damage from hitting something. Flukes generally affect both eyes at once though.

 

[gabriellar]

Are both eyes cloudy, or just the right eye? Is the fish still feeding?

This looks like either fluke damage or mechanical damage from hitting something. Flukes generally affect both eyes at once though.

Just the right eye. Yes, still eating, seems to have a good appetite as well. I removed the rocks from the tank before I added copper power; nothing was left besides some macro algae in the tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Just the right eye. Yes, still eating, seems to have a good appetite as well. I removed the rocks from the tank before I added copper power; nothing was left besides some macro algae in the tank.

This sounds like mechanical damage. Those issues can take a month or more to resolve, and the eye can get infected. If the eye worsens, you may need to use Maracyn 1 (Erythromycin).

 

[gabriellar]

This sounds like mechanical damage. Those issues can take a month or more to resolve, and the eye can get infected. If the eye worsens, you may need to use Maracyn 1 (Erythromycin).

Thank you so much Jay! I'll get this medicine ordered in advance.

 

[gabriellar]

Third day with copper power in, fish looks a lot better -- white dots on the yellow body are gone, and the cloudy eye also mostly disappeared! Still see some ich spots left on fins. Is this the time I can start dosing PraziPro for treating flukes? Or should I wait until Ich is all gone and remove the copper before doing so? The other question is, I see the tail fin has some dark lines, does that look like fin rot?

 

[gabriellar]

And here's a picture of fish poop, it looks very different than clown fish poop, want to double-check if this is healthy poop. It only eats mysis so far, trying to train it to eat clam or mixed meaty food (urchin, squid, blood worm), but it won't touch.

 

[vetteguy53081]

And here's a picture of fish poop, it looks very different than clown fish poop, want to double-check if this is healthy poop. It only eats mysis so far, trying to train it to eat clam or mixed meaty food (urchin, squid, blood worm), but it won't touch.

Not abnormal for a butterfly and will also depend on what you’re feeding

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Third day with copper power in, fish looks a lot better -- white dots on the yellow body are gone, and the cloudy eye also mostly disappeared! Still see some ich spots left on fins. Is this the time I can start dosing PraziPro for treating flukes? Or should I wait until Ich is all gone and remove the copper before doing so? The other question is, I see the tail fin has some dark lines, does that look like fin rot?

If the fish isn’t flashing or scratching, I’d wait for the copper to finish before treating with prazi.

 

[gabriellar]

If the fish isn’t flashing or scratching, I’d wait for the copper to finish before treating with prazi.

It is not really scratching against anything, maybe because I’m removed everything from tank and there’s nothing to scratch against. But it does twist body for one or two times as if it is caught by an invisible net. And it’s happening more frequently than in the beginning.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

It is not really scratching against anything, maybe because I’m removed everything from tank and there’s nothing to scratch against. But it does twist body for one or two times as if it is caught by an invisible net. And it’s happening more frequently than in the beginning.

Ok, twitching can be a symptom of flukes. Since it’s getting worse, then running a concurrent prazi treatment might be needed:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-praziquantel-pzq.1105700/

 

[gabriellar]

I did a 50% water change to lower copper ppm before adding Prazipro today (half a teaspoon in the 10-gallon tank).

After reading the post above, I'm thinking about stopping dosing copper for two days to avoid any potential bacterial bloom and extra stress for the fish. Considering Prazipro kills flukes in about 6 hours, the effective chemical wears off in 24-48 hours due to bacteria, and this medicine doesn't need to be put in a second dose until about 8 days to let the fluke eggs hatch, I'm wondering if I can rotate copper power and Prazipro dosing, e.g., stop copper when start Prazi, wait for two days before dosing copper again; while waiting for Prazi timeout, does copper; then after another 4 days, dose Prazi and stop copper for two days. Please let me know if this is not a good idea tho!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I did a 50% water change to lower copper ppm before adding Prazipro today (half a teaspoon in the 10-gallon tank).

After reading the post above, I'm thinking about stopping dosing copper for two days to avoid any potential bacterial bloom and extra stress for the fish. Considering Prazipro kills flukes in about 6 hours, the effective chemical wears off in 24-48 hours due to bacteria, and this medicine doesn't need to be put in a second dose until about 8 days to let the fluke eggs hatch, I'm wondering if I can rotate copper power and Prazipro dosing, e.g., stop copper when start Prazi, wait for two days before dosing copper again; while waiting for Prazi timeout, does copper; then after another 4 days, dose Prazi and stop copper for two days. Please let me know if this is not a good idea tho!

It is commonly said that if the copper level drops below treatment level (2 ppm) for even a few hours, you must “restart the clock” and redo the entire treatment. You’ll read this online very often. However, empirically, I know that this is NOT true. However, I can’t tell you at what point a lower copper level does begin to affect the treatment, and then, how long the treatment must be extended.

I would just run copper right at 2ppm and dose prazi concurrently.

 

[gabriellar]

It is commonly said that if the copper level drops below treatment level (2 ppm) for even a few hours, you must “restart the clock” and redo the entire treatment. You’ll read this online very often. However, empirically, I know that this is NOT true. However, I can’t tell you at what point a lower copper level does begin to affect the treatment, and then, how long the treatment must be extended.

I would just run copper right at 2ppm and dose prazi concurrently.

makes sense, I'll bump the copper level back. Thanks Jay!

 

[gabriellar]

Need some urgent help! Fish covered with extra mucus, heavy breathing, and lying on the bottom of the tank once in a while. I'm listing out the timeline to see if this helps with the diagnosis. Left town for two days, and things went straight downhill with this fish.

Left town on Friday morning, and friends came to feed the fish two times every day. Saturday morning, a friend came for a water change and redose copper. I think I vaguely see Ich increase again on the fins from the video, but the fish looks happy still. This is also when copper has dropped again, I think, because when I came back home and tested today, copper was 1.75 ppm, so clearly my math wasn't correct when I told my friend how much to dose. Prazi should also be dropped since I have not redose. Last timestamp someone came over to my place and checked on the fish was 10 pm Saturday, says the fish looked active. I came back home around 3 pm today. The fish is lying flat on the bottom of the tank, so these symptoms developed in the past 17 hours.

My first suspicion was high ammonia and high phosphate, because I have a lot of algae growing on the tank glass. Not sure how much I can trust the API test, so I cleaned them up anyway in three batches and dosed copper, and changed water 30%, 40%, and 20% (last water change was because I noticed copper rising up to 2.70ppm, so I diluted with some new water). Seeing fish doing slightly better after changing the water since it was upright for a while. However, I just noticed it lies back down again.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Need some urgent help! Fish covered with extra mucus, heavy breathing, and lying on the bottom of the tank once in a while. I'm listing out the timeline to see if this helps with the diagnosis. Left town for two days, and things went straight downhill with this fish.

Left town on Friday morning, and friends came to feed the fish two times every day. Saturday morning, a friend came for a water change and redose copper. I think I vaguely see Ich increase again on the fins from the video, but the fish looks happy still. This is also when copper has dropped again, I think, because when I came back home and tested today, copper was 1.75 ppm, so clearly my math wasn't correct when I told my friend how much to dose. Prazi should also be dropped since I have not redose. Last timestamp someone came over to my place and checked on the fish was 10 pm Saturday, says the fish looked active. I came back home around 3 pm today. The fish is lying flat on the bottom of the tank, so these symptoms developed in the past 17 hours.

My first suspicion was high ammonia and high phosphate, because I have a lot of algae growing on the tank glass. Not sure how much I can trust the API test, so I cleaned them up anyway in three batches and dosed copper, and changed water 30%, 40%, and 20% (last water change was because I noticed copper rising up to 2.70ppm, so I diluted with some new water). Seeing fish doing slightly better after changing the water since it was upright for a while. However, I just noticed it lies back down again.

Sorry - I’m just seeing this now.
Did the fish survive the night?

It sure sounds like some water quality problem….