if I use live rock will I still have to cycle my tank

[fishywishy]

They say you’re supposed to wait 6 months or something like that to get corals, so that way you rock and filter get established. So I’m wondering if I just buy a whole bunch of live rock that’s already been cycled will I still have to wait?

 

[Soren]

2 more questions do I have to add ammonia or anything to the water like what you would do with dead rock to make it cycle or does ocean live rock not need it? And is it okay to drop in some dr Tim’s bacteria that I have laying around just for the heck of it?

Ocean live rock (or other live rock) does not initially need ammonia additions and it is safest not to add ammonia directly. If you keep your rock in a separate system, you may want to feed some fish food to keep the bacteria populations going. If you add fish within the first couple weeks, just feed the fish and other livestock.

The Dr. Tim's bacteria will likely not add a benefit and may just add to the instability of the ecosystem until equilibrium of your system is reached. Some people add it without any measurable negative impact, but it should not be needed.

 

[fishywishy]

Ocean live rock (or other live rock) does not initially need ammonia additions and it is safest not to add ammonia directly. If you keep your rock in a separate system, you may want to feed some fish food to keep the bacteria populations going. If you add fish within the first couple weeks, just feed the fish and other livestock.

The Dr. Tim's bacteria will likely not add a benefit and may just add to the instability of the ecosystem until equilibrium of your system is reached. Some people add it without any measurable negative impact, but it should not be needed.

I was planning on using Carib sea sand and the gas some beneficial bacteria in it, will this mess up the stability?

 

[Soren]

I was planning on using Carib sea sand and the gas some beneficial bacteria in it, will this mess up the stability?

If you use true live rock that is kept wet (especially ocean-direct), I would not think you need to add any bacteria to any other media.
For the Carib Sea sand, what type are you using? ...though no matter the type, I think it is best advice to rinse the sand thoroughly in clean, running freshwater and ignore any "live sand" consideration if it is off-the-shelf bagged sand. The live rock should be enough to initiate populations of bacteria in the sand. If you want to use live sand purchased ocean-direct through a supplier, then you may consider adding it directly or rinse it moderately in saltwater.

 

[pr_diver]

So perfect example this tank is 4 days old, setup with live rock, I have 4 hermits, 2 baby brittle stars, 2 baby sea urchins about the size of a baby's pinky nail, some assorted coral, a pistol shrimp, wart anemone, snails, dozens of yellow, black/white stripped and brown feather dusters. After 4 days, today I'm doing a 30% water change. Ammonia is 1.2 spike from a slight die off, which is normal. Nitrates and Nitrites are good .01 and 5.

Just keep on it, are you using RODI water. Also don't condition or lockup your ammonia with a product during your cycle. Water change is always better. I have a big bottle of prime, I use it after cycling to help maintain certain parameters in emergency not a substitute for a water change.

 

[fishywishy]

If you use true live rock that is kept wet (especially ocean-direct), I would not think you need to add any bacteria to any other media.
For the Carib Sea sand, what type are you using? ...though no matter the type, I think it is best advice to rinse the sand thoroughly in clean, running freshwater and ignore any "live sand" consideration if it is off-the-shelf bagged sand. The live rock should be enough to initiate populations of bacteria in the sand. If you want to use live sand purchased ocean-direct through a supplier, then you may consider adding it directly or rinse it moderately in saltwater.

One more question, if I cycle the aquarium will i have no die off because my other tank is still running and i can put the whole filter from the old tank on it to instantly cycle it?

 

[Soren]

One more question, if I cycle the aquarium will i have no die off because my other tank is still running and i can put the whole filter on it to instantly cycle it?

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting.
Is your live rock from your existing setup? What is still in your existing tank at the moment?
What filter do you have to transfer?

What are the steps you are currently intending with this change-over?

I need more information before I consider offering specific advice.

 

[fishywishy]

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting.
Is your live rock from your existing setup? What is still in your existing tank at the moment?
What filter do you have to transfer?

What are the steps you are currently intending with this change-over?

I need more information before I consider offering specific advice.

Well i was originally planning on starting everything from new in a new tank and getting ocean direct rock so i don’t have to cycle it and i can get as many fish as i want instantly but i have a old 30 tank that I've had running for 6 months but i wasn’t planning on using anything from that tank because there was a fish disease that killed all of my fish in there but its been fallow for about 2 months now so i think it will be okay to use some used filter media and the rock i have from that tank to instantly cycle the new tank, so my question is if i put some old filter media and the live rock that i have in that old tank to cycle the new tank will i have no die off if i get some ocean direct rock because I'm still planning on getting some ocean direct rock?

 

[ReefGeezer]

Well i was originally planning on starting everything from new in a new tank and getting ocean direct rock so i don’t have to cycle it and i can get as many fish as i want instantly but i have a old 30 tank that I've had running for 6 months but i wasn’t planning on using anything from that tank because there was a fish disease that killed all of my fish in there but its been fallow for about 2 months now so i think it will be okay to use some used filter media and the rock i have from that tank to instantly cycle the new tank, so my question is if i put some old filter media and the live rock that i have in that old tank to cycle the new tank will i have no die off if i get some ocean direct rock because I'm still planning on getting some ocean direct rock?

Your operating under a couple false assumptions:
1. Ocean direct rock does not allow you to get as many fish as you want immediately; and
2. Cycling a tank won't guarantee that there is no die off when adding ocean direct rock.

If it were me, I'd use only ocean direct rock and stock fish and corals slowly and strategically.

 

[Soren]

Well i was originally planning on starting everything from new in a new tank and getting ocean direct rock so i don’t have to cycle it and i can get as many fish as i want instantly but i have a old 30 tank that I've had running for 6 months but i wasn’t planning on using anything from that tank because there was a fish disease that killed all of my fish in there but its been fallow for about 2 months now so i think it will be okay to use some used filter media and the rock i have from that tank to instantly cycle the new tank, so my question is if i put some old filter media and the live rock that i have in that old tank to cycle the new tank will i have no die off if i get some ocean direct rock because I'm still planning on getting some ocean direct rock?

I agree with @ReefGeezer in the post above.

You can use old rock from your other system, but you might want to wait longer to ensure the lowest possible chance of transmitting disease, just to be sure.
Using ocean live rock does not allow for instant full bioload, but it is a significant start to effective bacteria populations as well as other added benefits from interesting organisms.
If you cycle the tank before adding live rock, there may still be die-off due to transit of the live rock. Pre-cycle does not seem necessary or even beneficial to me.

What I would recommend you do is start the new tank with the ocean rock and new, clean aragonite sand (if you want a sand bed instead of bare-bottom). After the first week or two, confirm that ammonia is at zero to confirm die-off effects are mitigated and observe for unwanted hitchhikers (you may want to dip the rocks in hyper-saline water upon arrival to dislodge critters for initial consideration before even adding to your tank; you also want to wash the rocks in clean saltwater to clean off decaying material before adding to the tank in order to limit initial ammonia effects). After at least a few weeks for observation, you can begin adding corals, invertebrates, and fish with a patient, structured plan over time.

In the meantime, I would take your old tank and clean the rocks thoroughly, keep the filter media, and set up the tank as a quarantine tank. As you buy fish (over time according to your plan; some can begin quarantine while completing the steps above), they should go through quarantine before introduction to your main system, at minimum to observe the fish for a couple weeks to check for diseases. Be prepared to resolve disease issues if they should arise (this is too complicated for me to advise completely; search the forums and ask for expert advice).

Eventually, you could add your old rock to your new system to increase rock amount.

If you follow this plan, you should achieve a stable system as quickly as possible while still practicing patience (don't rush it when you do not have extensive experience and fully understand the basic chemistry and biology of the system).

Hopefully this helps!

 

[leo12345]

I agree with @ReefGeezer in the post above.

You can use old rock from your other system, but you might want to wait longer to ensure the lowest possible chance of transmitting disease, just to be sure.
Using ocean live rock does not allow for instant full bioload, but it is a significant start to effective bacteria populations as well as other added benefits from interesting organisms.
If you cycle the tank before adding live rock, there may still be die-off due to transit of the live rock. Pre-cycle does not seem necessary or even beneficial to me.

What I would recommend you do is start the new tank with the ocean rock and new, clean aragonite sand (if you want a sand bed instead of bare-bottom). After the first week or two, confirm that ammonia is at zero to confirm die-off effects are mitigated and observe for unwanted hitchhikers (you may want to dip the rocks in hyper-saline water upon arrival to dislodge critters for initial consideration before even adding to your tank; you also want to wash the rocks in clean saltwater to clean off decaying material before adding to the tank in order to limit initial ammonia effects). After at least a few weeks for observation, you can begin adding corals, invertebrates, and fish with a patient, structured plan over time.

In the meantime, I would take your old tank and clean the rocks thoroughly, keep the filter media, and set up the tank as a quarantine tank. As you buy fish (over time according to your plan; some can begin quarantine while completing the steps above), they should go through quarantine before introduction to your main system, at minimum to observe the fish for a couple weeks to check for diseases. Be prepared to resolve disease issues if they should arise (this is too complicated for me to advise completely; search the forums and ask for expert advice).

Eventually, you could add your old rock to your new system to increase rock amount.

If you follow this plan, you should achieve a stable system as quickly as possible while still practicing patience (don't rush it when you do not have extensive experience and fully understand the basic chemistry and biology of the system).

Hopefully this helps!

Well what’s the benefit of getting ocean rocks if you still have to wait to get fish? I thought that was the whole point.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Well what’s the benefit of getting ocean rocks if you still have to wait to get fish? I thought that was the whole point.

Cycling a tank is simple. At its simplest, just adding an ammonia source and waiting for Nature to do her job will work. There are all sorts of methods that speed the process, including adding a lot of rock that has been cultured in the ocean. Establishing the nitrogen cycle is the easiest and, while necessary, not the most important thing that needs to be done when establishing a reef tank. The issue is complicated. I tried to address it in this article. It is not a perfect or all inclusive explanation, but it will get you started.

 

[Soren]

Well what’s the benefit of getting ocean rocks if you still have to wait to get fish? I thought that was the whole point.

You don't have to wait to get fish if you use ocean rocks, it is just safer and more recommended. There should be bacteria enough on the rocks to process ammonia from immediate fish introductions, but the process to a stable system has many different facets that should be taken into account. Due to this, I recommend not rushing things and learning as much as possible to really understand the basics of the chemistry and biology in this hobby rather than just hoping for instant stability.

The primary purposes of waiting with ocean rock are to mitigate potential ammonia from die-off due to transit and to mitigate risk of diseases or bad hitchhikers introduced with the live rock.

When I bought my ocean rock, the shipment was delayed a day extra and I had noticeable die-off and measurable ammonia levels that would have been harmful to fish. I also found some dead cirolanid isopods that are parasitic to fish, so another risk avoided due to quarantining my rock and not rushing things.

The benefit to ocean rock, in my opinion, is not necessarily to achieve instant stability (though possible), but rather to reach stability much more quickly with a more natural diversity which helps to mitigate risks of our lack of perfect understanding of the full ecosystem.

In the end, I think ocean rock is the "best" method to reach instant stability (if it is reached), but I still think that taking time is the best recommended practice for anyone new to this hobby.

 

[fishywishy]

You don't have to wait to get fish if you use ocean rocks, it is just safer and more recommended. There should be bacteria enough on the rocks to process ammonia from immediate fish introductions, but the process to a stable system has many different facets that should be taken into account. Due to this, I recommend not rushing things and learning as much as possible to really understand the basics of the chemistry and biology in this hobby rather than just hoping for instant stability.

The primary purposes of waiting with ocean rock are to mitigate potential ammonia from die-off due to transit and to mitigate risk of diseases or bad hitchhikers introduced with the live rock.

When I bought my ocean rock, the shipment was delayed a day extra and I had noticeable die-off and measurable ammonia levels that would have been harmful to fish. I also found some dead cirolanid isopods that are parasitic to fish, so another risk avoided due to quarantining my rock and not rushing things.

The benefit to ocean rock, in my opinion, is not necessarily to achieve instant stability (though possible), but rather to reach stability much more quickly with a more natural diversity which helps to mitigate risks of our lack of perfect understanding of the full ecosystem.

In the end, I think ocean rock is the "best" method to reach instant stability (if it is reached), but I still think that taking time is the best recommended practice for anyone new to this hobby.

How long do you quarantine the LR for to get rid of those isopods and would a hypo salinity dip get rid of them?

 

[Soren]

How long do you quarantine the LR for to get rid of those isopods and would a hypo salinity dip get rid of them?

I don't know for sure how long you should wait. I had mine in a tank without fish for several months due to my purposes and schedule. To date, I have only seen a few dead ones within the first couple days after arrival. There have been 4 Pink Smith's Damsels in my live rock tank a few months now that have not shown evidence of any parasites.

I think a hypo-saline dip is one method to help prevent their introduction, as would be a hyper-saline dip. My experience is too limited to offer specific advice on either...

 

[GatorGreg]

Well what’s the benefit of getting ocean rocks if you still have to wait to get fish? I thought that was the whole point.

Bruh. I will never understand why the nitrogen cycle just blows people's minds and people fling s*** in every single thread about cycling lol. It's literally the simplest part of the reefing journey and yall make it so complicated. We are literally 6 pages in....on the millionth cycling thread.

You don't have to wait to get fish. You just can't throw every fish you want in there at one time. Just start with a few coral. Then a fish....then some coral....then another fish. Spread it out over a week or two for each addition. Let your biofilter adjust to each addition. That's what they mean when they say slow down.

Live ocean rock has its pitfalls. Don't get me wrong. But theres somethings that I am willing to deal with to not deal with the things I dealt with from dry rock/fish less cycle debacles.

My tank is maybe getting close to a month old. It was started with fresh aussie ocean rock. I now have a literal army of copepods. Probably 10 feather dusters, several types of sponges, a cluster of palys, a cluster of beautiful zoas that surprised me last night that I didn't even know i had. Tons of coraline that's already spreading in several colors. All kinds of little critters that come out at night. It's absolutely fantastic. All of that came with my rock. I didn't buy or add any of that. I saw ammonia for ONE DAY! My water is CRYSTAL clear and I don't use carbon or anything besides a filter sock for that matter. I currently have 4 corals and a few inverts. This weekend I plan on adding a couple more corals.


Does my tank still have to stabilize? Absolutely. Will I lose a few corals? Probably so. But is my tank
Several years or more ahead of where I'd be if I started with dry rock and sand......100%

 

[GatorGreg]

How long do you quarantine the LR for to get rid of those isopods and would a hypo salinity dip get rid of them?

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't pay 25 dollars a pound for ocean rock shipped to my door and then start hypo saline dipping it and trying to kill all the things that I paid 25 dollars a pound to get. That's just me......Bunch of people on here smarter than me though.

Like I said there are some pitfalls to ocean rock

 

[Soren]

Bruh. I will never understand why the nitrogen cycle just blows people's minds and people fling s*** in every single thread about cycling lol. It's literally the simplest part of the reefing journey and yall make it so complicated. We are literally 6 pages in....on the millionth cycling thread.

You don't have to wait to get fish. You just can't throw every fish you want in there at one time. Just start with a few coral. Then a fish....then some coral....then another fish. Spread it out over a week or two for each addition. Let your biofilter adjust to each addition. That's what they mean when they say slow down.

Live ocean rock has its pitfalls. Don't get me wrong. But theres somethings that I am willing to deal with to not deal with the things I dealt with from dry rock/fish less cycle debacles.

My tank is maybe getting close to a month old. It was started with fresh aussie ocean rock. I now have a literal army of copepods. Probably 10 feather dusters, several types of sponges, a cluster of palys, a cluster of beautiful zoas that surprised me last night that I didn't even know i had. Tons of coraline that's already spreading in several colors. All kinds of little critters that come out at night. It's absolutely fantastic. All of that came with my rock. I didn't buy or add any of that. I saw ammonia for ONE DAY! My water is CRYSTAL clear and I don't use carbon or anything besides a filter sock for that matter. I currently have 4 corals and a few inverts. This weekend I plan on adding a couple more corals.


Does my tank still have to stabilize? Absolutely. Will I lose a few corals? Probably so. But is my tank
Several years or more ahead of where I'd be if I started with dry rock and sand......100%

I agree. The reason to maybe consider waiting a few days or weeks to add fish is to observe for fish threats such as cyrolanid isopods or eunicid worms.

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't pay 25 dollars a pound for ocean rock shipped to my door and then start hypo saline dipping it and trying to kill all the things that I paid 25 dollars a pound to get. That's just me......Bunch of people on here smarter than me though.

Like I said there are some pitfalls to ocean rock

I did not dip mine at all, but I have quarantined it in a separate tank for 10 months now while progressing on my build. This was a personal choice based on my own timing and with the intention of using this tank as a culture tank for future dry rock possibilities.
If a dip is used, it needs to be short-term just to dislodge motile creatures. The main reason to dip is if the fear of the introduction of "bad hitchhikers" is greater than the desire for all the benefits of live rock... which was not my case.

 

[fishywishy]

I bought live rock no bottled bac let it settle 1 week added 3 fish - midas blenny/purple tang/lemonpeel angel you underestimate the power of live rock

Where did you get yours from?

 

[Dave1993]

Where did you get yours from?

Masterfisch i'm not from america i am from uk they might ship to you though idk

 

[brandon429]

Post 104 is a misread. There isn't an ammonia spike, his kit isn't digital it's the cheap misreading kind

Look at the rocks: they're cured, nothing can die off

Ocean direct is uncured rocks with lots of things externally we can see to die off

Cycling has no agreement within the hobby because 10% of peers apply updated cycling science, and 90% apply old cycling science where a perfect tank picture and completely normal active animals are not factored anytime an api or a red sea kit wants to make up a spike. Here is nine pages of old cycling science wrecking people's enjoyment of reefing

All examples here are exactly like post 104 above:

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

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