ION Director - measuring Ca + Mg

[Sticks And Stones]

This is excellent news! I look forward to the forthcoming details

 

[ReefyB]

Not quite.

If we want to know the price for measurement (and not to forget: with controlling option!) of KH + Ca + Mg we can do this calculation:

Let's assume - for discussion purposes only - prices not final yet! - that the single unit costs $450, the slave set $800 and the standalone set $850 (like KHD)

Scenario 1: "Brain" is Standalone Doser of the KHD set
KHD Set SA (KHD + Standalone Doser 4 pumps) $850 + Ion Director Set Slave (with Doser 4 pumps) $800 = $1650
This gives you also 3 extra pumps for dosing / controlling.

Scenario 2: "Brain" is an existing ProfiLux 4 (or another Standalone Doser or ProfiLux 3, it doesn't matter, just any master GHL device with PAB)
Then you would only need slave dosers, KHD Set Slave $800 + IOD Set Slave $800 = $1600
There you also will have 3 free pumps for dosing / controlling.

Of course you can have it cheaper and purchase single items with the lowest amount of pumps necessary, then you would save a few bucks but loose the extra pumps for dosing/controlling.

You can construct also much higher prices. E.g. assuming someone buys a P4 + KHD + IOD + Dosers (in case he has no other equipment at the beginning).
But where is the point for that calculation? In this construction you would forget that the ProfiLux system could do a bit more than just KH, Ca, Mg measurement resp. controlling and dosing.

I think this is not a "who is the cheapest?"-contest.

In my opionion the questions are: Does it work at all in the long term, is it reliable and can I use it for controlling or only measuring?
I can answer this only for GHL: Yes.

Keep in mind that 1st scenario of $1650 for Alk/Ca/Mg with dosing control assumes you were able to run the ION director testing both Ca and Mg with only 2 dosing pumps (leaving 3 pumps available), or that you must dose alk, Ca, and mg with a 2-part on the only 2 available heads. Before you said maybe 3 pumps would be needed, have you confirmed just two now? Additionally this scenario does not include a controller/profilux, not that it’s necessary, but competing products will even have their controller included for a considerably lower price point.

If you simply consider buyers looking for a new controller system with the ability test the big 3 who either 1) don’t currently own any aquarium controller system and/or 2) are starting a new build with a new system, you’re back to the $2500. I understand your goal isn’t to be the cheapest, but hopefully you can come up with a bundle kit (with all 5 devices) that is in the ballpark at least of some other products out there.

 

[Tbird2101]

Keep in mind that 1st scenario of $1650 for Alk/Ca/Mg with dosing control assumes you were able to run the ION director testing both Ca and Mg with only 2 dosing pumps (leaving 3 pumps available), or that you must dose alk, Ca, and mg with a 2-part on the only 2 available heads. Before you said maybe 3 pumps would be needed, have you confirmed just two now? Additionally this scenario does not include a controller/profilux, not that it’s necessary, but competing products will even have their controller included for a considerably lower price point.

If you simply consider buyers looking for a new controller system with the ability test the big 3 who either 1) don’t currently own any aquarium controller system and/or 2) are starting a new build with a new system, you’re back to the $2500. I understand your goal isn’t to be the cheapest, but hopefully you can come up with a bundle kit (with all 5 devices) that is in the ballpark at least of some other products out there.

I dont need it to be the same price personally but it seems a little odd that the device your putting out to do a job requires another device to make it work. It would be like buying a car without the engine included. Kinda silly. If the Directors are an expensive paper weight without the doser then the doser should be included with the directors.

 

[Matthias Gross]

The KH Director is a slave unit (needs another master device as a brain), the Ion Director will be a slave device, too.
We can't know what equipment the user already has. For that reason we have KHD Standalone sets (with Standalone Doser) for people, who don't own a ProfiLux or another Standalone Doser, and we have the KHD Slave sets, for those who have already a device which can act as master.
We will do the same with the Ion Director.
It makes no sense to design KHD or ID as a master device - this would only increase costs - since you need a doser anyway, and this can be the master. Or you have already a P4 (the a slave doser would do it).
I am not sure how to offer more flexibility.

 

[Tbird2101]

Maybe I explained it the wrong way. If you need dosing heads for the unit why arent they attached the the unit itself. It cannot be used without dosers. I would think if you made the unit a bit bigger with the dosers required built into the device rather then require a second module then you may have been able to get the price to the consumer down a bit and stay competitive with pricing is all im saying. Noone gets into the hobby to save money but it certainly is nice when we can shave a bit off the top. I could be wrong but its just what I was thinking.

 

[Mortie31]

Keep in mind that 1st scenario of $1650 for Alk/Ca/Mg with dosing control assumes you were able to run the ION director testing both Ca and Mg with only 2 dosing pumps (leaving 3 pumps available), or that you must dose alk, Ca, and mg with a 2-part on the only 2 available heads. Before you said maybe 3 pumps would be needed, have you confirmed just two now? Additionally this scenario does not include a controller/profilux, not that it’s necessary, but competing products will even have their controller included for a considerably lower price point.

If you simply consider buyers looking for a new controller system with the ability test the big 3 who either 1) don’t currently own any aquarium controller system and/or 2) are starting a new build with a new system, you’re back to the $2500. I understand your goal isn’t to be the cheapest, but hopefully you can come up with a bundle kit (with all 5 devices) that is in the ballpark at least of some other products out there.

Why would you sell a better more reliable product with more functionality in a bundle for the same price as an inferior competitors product? That makes absolutely zero business sense

 

[Mortie31]

Maybe I explained it the wrong way. If you need dosing heads for the unit why arent they attached the the unit itself. It cannot be used without dosers. I would think if you made the unit a bit bigger with the dosers required built into the device rather then require a second module then you may have been able to get the price to the consumer down a bit and stay competitive with pricing is all im saying. Noone gets into the hobby to save money but it certainly is nice when we can shave a bit off the top. I could be wrong but its just what I was thinking.

Size and flexibility

 

[Tbird2101]

Why would you sell a better more reliable product with more functionality in a bundle for the same price as an inferior competitors product? That makes absolutely zero business sense

Even if it was $750 its not even close to the same price. Apex plus a triton is $1400 (monitors all 3 plus the normal 4 and aquarium controller) GHL would be $850+$400+$400+$449+$449= $2498 plus maybe the cost of another powerstrip because all that equipment just took up almost every spot haha. Im not saying a better product should be cheaper or the same price at all. Its gonna cost more for certain, but almost double?! Lets be honest here were not talking about a ferrari vs a kia its more like a BMW vs a Mercades. This is all for debate by the way. I dont wanna start a fight, im just bouncing info off you guys to see if im overthinking this.

 

[Tbird2101]

There may be nothing sexier then a cabinet with all that GHL equipment in it though lol

 

[Josh Kraft]

There may be nothing sexier then a cabinet with all that GHL equipment in it though lol

Funny thing is, I had a response typed earlier that I can't fit everything my cabinet if I add 2 more devices.

I'll need a small side cabinet, my current setup is:

Profilux
Doser 1
Doser 2
KHD

PS: @Matthias Gross , Doser 2 is lonely with just my Ca running on it, its calling for an Ion Director.

 

[Macca_75]

@Matthias Gross - would a P3 with dosing units (master and slave) from the same vintage run the ION and KH director? or does it need to be Doser 2 and above?

 

[Matthias Gross]

@Matthias Gross - would a P3 with dosing units (master and slave) from the same vintage run the ION and KH director? or does it need to be Doser 2 and above?

You need one Master Device: P3, P4 or GHL Doser 2 (or Maxi) Standalone, we will offer a firmware update with the ION Director functions for all of them - as we did for the KHD functions.

So yes, if you have enough free pumps.

 

[Matthias Gross]

Funny thing is, I had a response typed earlier that I can't fit everything my cabinet if I add 2 more devices.

I'll need a small side cabinet, my current setup is:

Profilux
Doser 1
Doser 2
KHD

PS: @Matthias Gross , Doser 2 is lonely with just my Ca running on it, its calling for an Ion Director.

We should start selling cabinets.

 

[cvanchuck]

Shut up and take my money!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cvanchuck]

Shut up and take my money!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cvanchuck]

Shut up and take my money! !!!!!!!!

 

[Matthias Gross]

Apex plus a triton is $1400 (monitors all 3 plus the normal 4 and aquarium controller) ... This is all for debate by the way. I dont wanna start a fight

I don't want either to start a debate/fight about competitors products and prices. But just for clarification for me and to avoid to give a wrong impression here I need you to ask someting, I am not so familiar with the "triton" (should be "Trident", right?) since I couldn't see much detailled information about it.
In the GHL products you listed and calculated a price for we have all pumps for Ion D and KHD plus a few extra pumps for dosing - Are in these $1400 you calculated for the other products also the needed pumps plus a few extra pumps included?

 

[Torx]

I don't want either to start a debate/fight about competitors products and prices. But just for clarification for me and to avoid to give a wrong impression here I need you to ask someting, I am not so familiar with the "triton" (should be "Trident", right?) since I couldn't see much detailled information about it.
In the GHL products you listed and calculated a price for we have all pumps for Ion D and KHD plus a few extra pumps for dosing - Are in these $1400 you calculated for the other products also the needed pumps plus a few extra pumps included?

After reading this thread I was about to post approximately the exact same comment. People are always looking for what is 'cheap and easy' but that does not mean better and/or the best option. The 'competitor' was commenting on a FB thread about how theirs is cheaper and more reliable of which there is no comment as neither product has made it to market. Every time I see a discussion between the 2 products, it boils down to $$ to $$ in the discussion. If you break it down then yes, a known competitor product is 'cheaper', but that does not make it a better controller. Comparing the 2 is like asking Ecotech to lower their pricing to be competitive because other brands are cheaper or asking SONY to lower their price because ROKU is cheaper. Value is in the eye of the beholder. Cost comparison is a mute discussion in my eyes, I will gladly pay more for a product that I like over one that I do not. I will be interested in the BETA results with probe care and longevity of the ISE probes. Plus do not forget that Reefkeeper was once the cheaper controller...

 

[JoshH]

Yeah this was my point in the other thread. Sounds like it’s going to be a lot more devices and a whole lot more $$$ to do basically the same thing as their ‘competitor’, if you want to call it that.

Fair enough, if you are just talking about monitoring those 3 elements $1600 but most of us are looking at this as a conversion from the "competitor" so we dont have existing equipment. Compare that to the alternative $1400 to monitor those 3 elements which includes there best controller. Granted they wont have dosing as an option out the gate and you will which is a plus but that will come for the alternative in the future. That being said I am still considering the swap based of your reputation. Your product is second to none imo, but comes at a price, and that price is cold hard cash, and lots of it. Lol

I can't say that the Trident will be ANY cheaper than GHLs setup. Especially when you think about it (yes it might be slightly cheaper for those who already have the apex head units). It is not being released as a method of controlling only monitoring. Yes the controlling option will come down the road but how many DOS heads will you need for all that? The DOS is by far the most expensive per head and LEAST flexible as you Can't control it without the apex. When you look at it from a reliably standpoint, if the apex head dies, your entire system is dead, testing, dosing, everything. You DO NOT need a controller for this unit at all if you don't want, Just the SA Doser, this unit can completely test and dose without purchasing a controller atall, this isn't even an option with the Trident as it's completely dependant on the apex brain. I'll agree with @cvanchuck GHL Shut up and take my money!!

 

[ReefyB]

I can't say that the Trident will be ANY cheaper than GHLs setup.

Well it will definitely be cheaper, and it includes a controller.
Apex 500 + Trident 600 + DOS 300 = $1400.
A lot of 2-parts only need 2 heads to dose Alk/Ca/Mg. But even if you throw in another DOS (giving you more available heads than the GHL setup) to make it $1700, it’s still the same price as GHL’s without the controller, and a good deal less than $2500.

GHL recently made a post though asking for ideas of other things the ION director might test. If they can get it to accurately test Ca/Mg AND nitrate, phosphate, etc., then that’s a whole different story.. It sounds like they are making something that currently has no other competition so the price could definitely be worthwhile, and I’m looking forward to seeing it when it launches.

 

[ispookie666]

Why are we even discussing Apex? There is enough market for all.