ION Director - measuring Ca + Mg

[ispookie666]

Why are we even discussing Apex? There is enough market for all.

 

[Tbird2101]

I can't say that the Trident will be ANY cheaper than GHLs setup. Especially when you think about it (yes it might be slightly cheaper for those who already have the apex head units). It is not being released as a method of controlling only monitoring. Yes the controlling option will come down the road but how many DOS heads will you need for all that? The DOS is by far the most expensive per head and LEAST flexible as you Can't control it without the apex. When you look at it from a reliably standpoint, if the apex head dies, your entire system is dead, testing, dosing, everything. You DO NOT need a controller for this unit at all if you don't want, Just the SA Doser, this unit can completely test and dose without purchasing a controller atall, this isn't even an option with the Trident as it's completely dependant on the apex brain. I'll agree with @cvanchuck GHL Shut up and take my money!! :p

Agreed to a standpoint but I dont need any dosing heads to run the trident. It all inclusive and all for for $600 bucks. No it doesnt dose yet but even when it does I will need 2 units to get that up and running max. So another $600. Still only 1700 to do everything that to competitor can do as far as we know. If the DHL can monitor things other then the big 3 then that is a different story but I dont really see the need to have it monitor minor elements I may have to test 12 times a year tops. Just one mans opinion is all

 

[mitch91175]

Fair enough, if you are just talking about monitoring those 3 elements $1600 but most of us are looking at this as a conversion from the "competitor" so we dont have existing equipment. Compare that to the alternative $1400 to monitor those 3 elements which includes there best controller. Granted they wont have dosing as an option out the gate and you will which is a plus but that will come for the alternative in the future. That being said I am still considering the swap based of your reputation. Your product is second to none imo, but comes at a price, and that price is cold hard cash, and lots of it. Lol

Yeah that conversion from Neptune to GHL is a tough pill to swallow. A big huge horse sized pill, lol.

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

If this unit would be able to also test nitrate and phosphate, that would be crazy awesome and would make me want to get it for my own system. That would be adding to an already cramped cabinet but I'm glad I left another side open for expansion.

I love my GHL equipment, absolutely rock solid stuff.

 

[Ditto]

@sntmods - Agreed the ability to monitor and control, which is why it connected to the controller ;), and the possibility to test and control nitrate and phosphate makes this an easy choice. Now, figuring out where to place it in the cabinet though a different story :).

As a person who has done the switch from Apex to GHL, I would do it again hands down, the unit is rock solid, stable and reliable. The KH directors have kept two tanks within .1 DKH, can not wait to see what the Ion can do.

 

[Matthias Gross]

Well it will definitely be cheaper, and it includes a controller.
Apex 500 + Trident 600 + DOS 300 = $1400.
A lot of 2-parts only need 2 heads to dose Alk/Ca/Mg. But even if you throw in another DOS (giving you more available heads than the GHL setup) to make it $1700, it’s still the same price as GHL’s without the controller, and a good deal less than $2500.

GHL recently made a post though asking for ideas of other things the ION director might test. If they can get it to accurately test Ca/Mg AND nitrate, phosphate, etc., then that’s a whole different story.. It sounds like they are making something that currently has no other competition so the price could definitely be worthwhile, and I’m looking forward to seeing it when it launches.

Oh boy, I really don't like these discussions where everything is only about the price and not considering other aspects.

But now another number has been thrown into the ring and I can't let it stand that way uncommented.
"Apex 500" - I guess you refer to the cheaper set from them. Then you should also take our ProfiLux 4e Starter Set for comparison, and not the Mega Set.
Now you will say "but your cheaper set is $699". Then I have to say: Therefore it can do more. See details of the ProfiLux 4e here: https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-aquarium-controller/profilux-4e/
If you don't see the differences: Have a look at the ports, upgrade options (e.g. internal expansion card slots).

That said we try now another (and hopefully last) approach for our math:

P4e Start-Set + KHD Slave Set + ION D Slave Set = 700 + 800 + 800 = 2300
this already gives you 3 free dosing pumps

Why do you say Trident $600? Was there another announcement, again price lowered? The last thing I heard was $700, but I can be wrong.
So I would be at around $1500.
But nobody answered my question about the pump for the Trident: Already included or do you need an extra doser for sample and waste water? Then add another $300

So, you are right, it seems to be more expensive - if and how much depends on the final prices of our products, of the competitors products and what else will be needed for operating it.

If you decision is only based on "where do I get the cheapest product", then no further discussion required.

BUT:
If you want to have features, which are (maybe - due to the lack of information I can't judge this now) not given in other products then the discussion would continue.

- Do you want to CONTROL based on the measured values - KHD can already control (several options: via dosing pumps, pH control, or simply sockets on/off), ION D will control, too
- Do you want to measure (and control) MORE than just KH, Ca, Mg - we will have this. According to our current survey this is very likely Nitrate and Phosphate, maybe plus a few other if wished.
The hardware is capable of that, no problem.

 

[Matthias Gross]

If this unit would be able to also test nitrate and phosphate, that would be crazy awesome and would make me want to get it for my own system. That would be adding to an already cramped cabinet but I'm glad I left another side open for expansion.

I love my GHL equipment, absolutely rock solid stuff.

When I see the current result of our survey I think these 2 will make it.

So the actual combination would be:
Ca + Mg + Nitrate + Phosphate + 2 spare ports

 

[Mortie31]

When I see the current result of our survey I think these 2 will make it.

So the actual combination would be:
Ca + Mg + Nitrate + Phosphate + 2 spare ports

Excellent Matthias, will it require a dosing head per parameter? I can’t get my head around how it’s going to work for all of those, is it 4 probes? I’m just being nosy really

 

[Matthias Gross]

No, only one pump for the sample water.

I don't want to share too many internal technical details now, how we measure internally, I don't want to be copied until we have the final product on the market.

 

[siggy]

Morning Gents, exciting news, Reliable Big 3 testing, control & adjustment. Hopefully all this technology should evolve into a sensible price point in time. I have a new GHL system going into my tank and Im currently using the 2.1.
I would love all this tech but it is out of reach unless I want a divorce. Following along.

 

[ReefyB]

Oh boy, I really don't like these discussions where everything is only about the price and not considering other aspects.

But now another number has been thrown into the ring and I can't let it stand that way uncommented.
"Apex 500" - I guess you refer to the cheaper set from them. Then you should also take our ProfiLux 4e Starter Set for comparison, and not the Mega Set.
Now you will say "but your cheaper set is $699". Then I have to say: Therefore it can do more. See details of the ProfiLux 4e here: https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-aquarium-controller/profilux-4e/
If you don't see the differences: Have a look at the ports, upgrade options (e.g. internal expansion card slots).

That said we try now another (and hopefully last) approach for our math:

P4e Start-Set + KHD Slave Set + ION D Slave Set = 700 + 800 + 800 = 2300
this already gives you 3 free dosing pumps

Why do you say Trident $600? Was there another announcement, again price lowered? The last thing I heard was $700, but I can be wrong.
So I would be at around $1500.
But nobody answered my question about the pump for the Trident: Already included or do you need an extra doser for sample and waste water? Then add another $300

So, you are right, it seems to be more expensive - if and how much depends on the final prices of our products, of the competitors products and what else will be needed for operating it.

If you decision is only based on "where do I get the cheapest product", then no further discussion required.

BUT:
If you want to have features, which are (maybe - due to the lack of information I can't judge this now) not given in other products then the discussion would continue.

- Do you want to CONTROL based on the measured values - KHD can already control (several options: via dosing pumps, pH control, or simply sockets on/off), ION D will control, too
- Do you want to measure (and control) MORE than just KH, Ca, Mg - we will have this. According to our current survey this is very likely Nitrate and Phosphate, maybe plus a few other if wished.
The hardware is capable of that, no problem.

Well your a bit off on a couple things, for instance Neptune has said many times the trident will be between $500 and $600, so I’m not sure where your getting $700. Also, you won’t need an extra doser for the trident for sample/waste water, so you can remove that $300. Also keep in mind with the Apex setup, you would have 4 dosing heads (not 3 like with the GHL setup you described) for $1,700 vs. $2,300 for yours.

That said, I was simply responding to someone who had quoted me as they were confused n the math. As I said before, I’m not looking for “the cheapest” product, I was just looking to compare what is the better deal. I actually agree with you now that it was announced the ION director can do more to include Nitrate/Phosphate testing. I’d definitely pay more to have those tests (if accurate) as part of my system, and I bet a lot of other people will too. If, however, the ION director was only doing Ca and Mg, then without a doubt Neptune would be a better deal.. but since it’s not, this is kind of a moot point (unless/until Neptune decides to launch trident with probes that can test Nitrate/Phosphate too..). Still, it would be great if you can come up with a package deal where we can get the whole bundle for under 2K, but I understand if the new tech makes that impossible.

 

[Crimsonvice]

GHL is known for reliability, where other companies are not. Most all knocks on GHL are price, you can't say that for other companies. Pricing may be cheaper, but what happens when your brain fails or server issue cause your equipment to turn on and off randomly? This is not an APEX vs GHL debate.

Congrats on the upcoming release! I am in for one.

 

[Ditto]

It interesting how we keep putting price into this.

But it more then price.

The Trident pumps are built in, we have yet been given any details on the longevity of the pumps, the tubes that service the unit within or the sensor that does the reading. For $600 a user is paying for something that if it breaks is going back to Neptune Systems for repair. Hopefully it not like the WAV product where people were complaining of the pumps breaking down within the first year, or shortly thereafter.

As for pricing them out, Yes the GHL is going to cost more. GHL products have always cost more. GHL developed the product line to work with both the ProfiLux 4, and the ProfiLux 3, unlike the Trident, Apex users must purchase the Apex 2016 to use the Device.

GHL has a proven track record already on the stability, reliability and control of Alkalinity with the KH director. We have no data on the Trident yet to make a comparison, except for the NSI posts.

The technology and approach being used by Neptune Systems and GHL are different. As a user who has switched from Apex to GHL, it does cost more, but it will never be a 1 to 1 price match due to the technology, design, approach and parts, used by GHL are different than that of Neptune Systems.

There is room for both types of technology and reefers will have some great choices this year. Budget is one of the things reefers do look at. But for me I looked at reliability, stability, control, then price because the importance of a controller monitoring and controlling my investment inside my reef tank is what was important to me. I also have to Agree with @Crimsonvice this is not a Apex vs GHL debate.

 

[Torx]

It interesting how we keep putting price into this.

But it more then price.

The Trident pumps are built in, we have yet been given any details on the longevity of the pumps, the tubes that service the unit within or the sensor that does the reading. For $600 a user is paying for something that if it breaks is going back to Neptune Systems for repair. Hopefully it not like the WAV product where people were complaining of the pumps breaking down within the first year, or shortly thereafter.

As for pricing them out, Yes the GHL is going to cost more. GHL products have always cost more. GHL developed the product line to work with both the ProfiLux 4, and the ProfiLux 3, unlike the Trident, Apex users must purchase the Apex 2016 to use the Device.

GHL has a proven track record already on the stability, reliability and control of Alkalinity with the KH director. We have no data on the Trident yet to make a comparison, except for the NSI posts.

The technology and approach being used by Neptune Systems and GHL are different. As a user who has switched from Apex to GHL, it does cost more, but it will never be a 1 to 1 price match due to the technology, design, approach and parts, used by GHL are different than that of Neptune Systems.

There is room for both types of technology and reefers will have some great choices this year. Budget is one of the things reefers do look at. But for me I looked at reliability, stability, control, then price because the importance of a controller monitoring and controlling my investment inside my reef tank is what was important to me. I also have to Agree with @Crimsonvice this is not a Apex vs GHL debate.

One of the best posts so far.

 

[Torx]

It interesting how we keep putting price into this.

But it more then price.

The Trident pumps are built in, we have yet been given any details on the longevity of the pumps, the tubes that service the unit within or the sensor that does the reading. For $600 a user is paying for something that if it breaks is going back to Neptune Systems for repair. Hopefully it not like the WAV product where people were complaining of the pumps breaking down within the first year, or shortly thereafter.

As for pricing them out, Yes the GHL is going to cost more. GHL products have always cost more. GHL developed the product line to work with both the ProfiLux 4, and the ProfiLux 3, unlike the Trident, Apex users must purchase the Apex 2016 to use the Device.

GHL has a proven track record already on the stability, reliability and control of Alkalinity with the KH director. We have no data on the Trident yet to make a comparison, except for the NSI posts.

The technology and approach being used by Neptune Systems and GHL are different. As a user who has switched from Apex to GHL, it does cost more, but it will never be a 1 to 1 price match due to the technology, design, approach and parts, used by GHL are different than that of Neptune Systems.

There is room for both types of technology and reefers will have some great choices this year. Budget is one of the things reefers do look at. But for me I looked at reliability, stability, control, then price because the importance of a controller monitoring and controlling my investment inside my reef tank is what was important to me. I also have to Agree with @Crimsonvice this is not a Apex vs GHL debate.

One of the best posts so far.

 

[siggy]

GHL is known for reliability,

That is why I am using GHL,

 

[siggy]

 

[Torx]

That is why I am using GHL, Apex is cheap and unreliable, so no need to go down that path.
Its about putting all these tests into separate costly boxes and 3 dosing heads for each test? Costly and waist-full redundancy, Where is that German Engineering? Now I will mention the space required and all the tubes.
Maybe this will explain what Im trying to convey.

I

I saw this at the Niagara Coral Show. I only wish I had one. I will drool at it again at London Fragfest in June.

 

[siggy]

I saw this at the Niagara Coral Show. I only wish I had one. I will drool at it again at London Fragfest in June.

He does exceptional work https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ghl-mounting-solution-by-elder1945.571482/#post-5841571

 

[Brew12]

When I see the current result of our survey I think these 2 will make it.

So the actual combination would be:
Ca + Mg + Nitrate + Phosphate + 2 spare ports

I have to admit, I was not excited when I first saw this product being discussed. Since I do balanced 2-part dosing I almost never test calcium anyway. I test magnesium slightly more often than calcium but not regularly. However, you get this thing to test PO4 and NO3? That is a game changer. It took awhile for me to trust my KH Director but I have that locked in now. You give me the ability to test PO4 and NO3 automatically and I won't do any testing at all during the week. To me, that is huge. I'd take those 2 tests over Ca and Mg any day of the week!