Is Florida aquacultured rock *really* all that bad?

[rbtmcardle]

Are these two snails not whelks?

I started my tank with a combo of TBS rock and dry rock from Reef Cleaners and I would to the same if starting over again. I got lots of cool stuff....limpets, stomatella, sponges, barnacles, hidden cup coral, feather dusters, pistol shrimp, urchins and pods.

I did get some bad guys too but that was part of the fun for me. Identifying and catching the bad ones. My list included gorilla crabs and two polyclad flat worms.

Olive snails is the best ID I come up with..

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

but I'm sure there's still a market for it.

I asked Him personally. It is available.

If you have to ask, you cant afford it.

 

[Johniejumbo]

Yep for me the more weird little living things that come with the rock the better! One of coolest memories I have from starting in on this hobby was looking at all the awesome freaky life form that came in when I ordered my first 50lb lot of Fiji live rock. I was up for hours looking at it.

 

[Clayalaleona]

IMO all the algae and random "stuff" this aquacultured live rock brings is not something I would want in my tank.
Nothing sucks more than hearing clicking in the middle of the night from a pistol/ mantis, having to deal with aiptasia or worse, hitchhiker crabs that love to pick on corals.
Why pay extra for something that you will have to put extra effort into fixing? Seems a little backward to me...
That's just my opinion though.

 

[Areseebee]

Not to mention it sucks to take a creature living happily in the sea and have to kill it or have it kill one of your fish/inverts. I'm not totally against it or anything, I remember being excited in the past, but I'd rather import the diversity I want.

 

[magicstix]

IMO all the algae and random "stuff" this aquacultured live rock brings is not something I would want in my tank.
Nothing sucks more than hearing clicking in the middle of the night from a pistol/ mantis, having to deal with aiptasia or worse, hitchhiker crabs that love to pick on corals.
Why pay extra for something that you will have to put extra effort into fixing? Seems a little backward to me...
That's just my opinion though.

Pistol shrimp are harmless. I even purposely bought one for my tank at work with a goby. I thought he was dead since I hadn't seen him in a year but I got lucky the other day and glimpsed him peeking out from behind a rock...

I don't want to be all "kids these days..." but... Back in the day we fought mantis hitchhikers and aiptasia all the time, and we were glad for the privilege to serve our tanks! Back then we didn't have fancy lasers and copperband butterflies to kill the aiptasia; we strangled it with our bare tongs. Back then the only good mantis was a dead mantis, but now you have people who actually want to keep them as pets and will give you money for your pests!

But seriously, diversity = stability. I just don't think you can purposely "import" enough diversity to create a stable ecosystem in your tank. Parasites sneak in all the time on everything else we add to the tank. It seems a bit unfair to blame live rock when we still wind up with nudibranchs, redbugs, aiptasia, and pyramid snails on frags coming into our tanks.

The discussions in this thread, and the pictures especially, have me really leaning towards pulling the trigger on some FL aquacultured rock, unless Premium Aquatics gets some Manado rock sometime soon... Maybe I'm just too old-school with my fond memories of red flashlights at night playing "what the heck is that?!" in high school...

The only thing I'm really worried about are cirolanid isopods... Those actually seem scary and hard to deal with, unlike gorilla crabs or mantis...

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

..

We have a friend her, Renee, she's pretty dang good at bugs and lifespans. On vacation right now.

Imo, a cirolanid should in general come in on fish not rock really. It may have a "trophont" stage similar to ick where the lay eggs butt, Your actually going to run the rock tank fallow for a bit. Yer not some kid with BRS rock n some Dr T's speed cycle.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

IMO all the algae and random "stuff" this aquacultured live rock brings is not something I would want in my tank.
Nothing sucks more than hearing clicking in the middle of the night from a pistol/ mantis, having to deal with aiptasia or worse, hitchhiker crabs that love to pick on corals.
Why pay extra for something that you will have to put extra effort into fixing? Seems a little backward to me...
That's just my opinion though.

Not to mention it sucks to take a creature living happily in the sea and have to kill it or have it kill one of your fish/inverts. I'm not totally against it or anything, I remember being excited in the past, but I'd rather import the diversity I want.

The option for works who want the bacterial and other benifits is to clean the rock.
You use flat worm extit and interceptor on the rock while they are in buckets. Then just changeing the five gallon size of water. It's exactly like killing a pest that Camden in on a frag that's now in your tank but easier. And your fish and coral sent in there. Probably take about a month.

And we should do that when we buy rock off caraigslist.
I personally would rather to that than have diatoms and Dino's for the next six months. A clean live rock tank will have almost no ugly phase. You still can't over feed and it's still immature but....

 

[scriptmonkey]

Pistol shrimp are harmless. I even purposely bought one for my tank at work with a goby. I thought he was dead since I hadn't seen him in a year but I got lucky the other day and glimpsed him peeking out from behind a rock...

I don't want to be all "kids these days..." but... Back in the day we fought mantis hitchhikers and aiptasia all the time, and we were glad for the privilege to serve our tanks! Back then we didn't have fancy lasers and copperband butterflies to kill the aiptasia; we strangled it with our bare tongs. Back then the only good mantis was a dead mantis, but now you have people who actually want to keep them as pets and will give you money for your pests!

But seriously, diversity = stability. I just don't think you can purposely "import" enough diversity to create a stable ecosystem in your tank. Parasites sneak in all the time on everything else we add to the tank. It seems a bit unfair to blame live rock when we still wind up with nudibranchs, redbugs, aiptasia, and pyramid snails on frags coming into our tanks.

The discussions in this thread, and the pictures especially, have me really leaning towards pulling the trigger on some FL aquacultured rock, unless Premium Aquatics gets some Manado rock sometime soon... Maybe I'm just too old-school with my fond memories of red flashlights at night playing "what the heck is that?!" in high school...

The only thing I'm really worried about are cirolanid isopods... Those actually seem scary and hard to deal with, unlike gorilla crabs or mantis...

I'm sorry but this post had me laughing. I could not get the thought of Kennedy saying: " My fellow Reefers, ask not what your tank can do for you, ask what you can do for your tank" out of my head.

 

[Lasse]

Thank you both. I should've been able to figure that out.

CITES would be relevant because CITES protects species, not where those species are coming from. Even captive bred reptiles, amphibians, etc. fall under CITES if the given species is covered.

Cheers,
rant

CITES is only a demand if the living (or even dead) rock (wild or farmed) consist of whole skeleton or parts of any Scleractinia spp (ded or alive) . If the farmed living rock consist of concret or other things than Scleractinia spp or other CITES protected organism - CITES is not needed.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Yes, there are some bad hitchhikers, aiptasia being the main culprits. I got my live rock from R2R sponsor gulfliverock.com.

The good hitchhikers are very plentiful, however. Lots of turkey wing clams, keyhole and fleshy limpets, golf ball, oculina, and hidden cup corals, various tunicates and sponges, spaghetti worms, and literally thousands of miniature brittle stars all with they arms outstretched waiting for a handout!

The macroalgae is not a big deal. If you have tangs, they will mow most of it down almost immediately except for the Halimeda. The Halimeda can be removed through manual methods and strict nutrient control at the beginning, if it is your desire to remove it.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Oh, and I forgot to mention the dozens of miniature feather dusters including white and multicolored varieties, amphipods, copepods, isopods, and of course bristleworms.

 

[sde1500]

If I remember correctly from reading, the aiptasia we all deal with overrunning tanks is a warmer water pacific variety. I think Rich said this, and the stuff you get on TBS clearly is not from the pacific. Its still aiptasia but far less prolific.

 

[andrew james]

Do you dip you corals before putting them in you tank? Because if you're just going to add 100 pounds of unknown rock to you tank why bother. I won't use live live rock and I won't use rock someone else cured. I like knowing exactly whats in my tank it affords me a level of control you just cant get when you add a bunch of unknown crap.

 

[Elegance Coral]

I live about 20 minutes from Tampa, and manage a LFS. I do not sell Florida live rock, and couldn't sleep at night if I did. I usually get customers after they have purchased FLR from somewhere else. They come to me hoping I can fix their problems. Gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, aiptasia, problem algae................. Seeing the frustration on their faces is not something I enjoy.
To start with, the rock is dense. For the space it takes up, it is very heavy, and comes at a premium price per pound. A good quality porous rock can be twice the size and weigh the same, or less. You can fill an aquarium with good quality porous rock for a fraction of the price per pound, filling the same space with fewer pounds, and without all the head aches.
If I sold FLR, then sold someone a goby, and the mantis shrimp I sold them with the FLR, ate the goby, what would I say to them when they came back in angry??????? I can give them their money back for the goby, but that doesn't make it right. For most of my customers, it isn't about the money. They just don't want to watch their animals die.
Maybe I'm just getting old, but it's much more important for me to be able to sleep with a clear conscious than to make a few bucks off some garbage LR.

Peace
EC

 

[scriptmonkey]

Do you dip you corals before putting them in you tank? Because if you're just going to add 100 pounds of unknown rock to you tank why bother. I won't use live live rock and I won't use rock someone else cured. I like knowing exactly whats in my tank it affords me a level of control you just cant get when you add a bunch of unknown crap.

All valid points. My thinking is I will purchase the rock and wait a little bit even after the cycle is complete to get rid of the critters I don't want (if any) and get a baseline of the tank. I guess every reefer goes for something a little different, I am not sure I would be 100% happy with a sterile environment, I am shooting for a little slice of the ocean. I guess I need to do some more research before I pull the trigger.

 

[Elegance Coral]

All valid points. My thinking is I will purchase the rock and wait a little bit even after the cycle is complete to get rid of the critters I don't want (if any) and get a baseline of the tank. I guess every reefer goes for something a little different, I am not sure I would be 100% happy with a sterile environment, I am shooting for a little slice of the ocean. I guess I need to do some more research before I pull the trigger.

More research would be wise.
There is no such thing as a sterile reef tank.
You can have your "little slice of the ocean" by starting with good quality dry base rock. You can have all the diversity you like by adding animals that can easily coexist. You don't have to pay the extra money, and play Russian roulette with your livestock, to get diversity, or to have a little slice of the ocean.
In the end, it's your tank. I wish you the best of luck with what ever you decide to do.
Peace
EC

 

[d2mini]

TBS is the best!
I've used them 4-5 times now to start up tanks and every time is amazing. It never gets old!
Tons of life and biodiversity right from the start and little to no cycle. This last time I was registering nitrates within 24 hours. ;Jawdrop
Fish and coral starting to go in immediately.
Yeah, you may get a mantis or a couple little gorilla crabs.... so what?! . That's life. Literally. Take them out if you don't want them in there.
I'll take the barnacles, feather dusters, porcelain crabs, mithrax crabs, tunicates, sponges, macros, pistol shrimp, pods, porites, and other cool stuff any day over dead white rock.
I've never gotten anything from TBS that couldn't be removed.

Here's my TWO WEEK old tank.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...-mixed-reef-build.241805/page-68#post-3675742

Another benefit... no rock is taken from the reefs.
It used to be quarried rock (why "heavy and dense" was mentioned above) but no longer.
TBS now uses the Walt Smith man made rock. (and some pukani if that's your thing).

 

[brandon429]

you know you are dealing with an informed crew of posters where for two pages nobody has mentioned rotting a shrimp in these various kinds of live rock to cycle it upon arrival.

if a cycling thread doesn't differentiate between kinds of rock that get ammonia, and kinds you want to keep ammonia ten football fields away from it, then said cycling thread is lacking core detail as this kind of rock certainly doesn't get the ammonia. linked to our cycling thread

for the threads about tank invasions its usually some form of algae or dinos we see, not much that could be isolated using dry rock starts, it was the non quarantine that got the respondent in trouble. even fish vectoring...slime coat pickup and sloughing is a fine here-to-there vector although Im sure we could keep mantis shrimps out using dry rock setups. invaders like aiptasia and valonia can 100% ride in on frags at a life stage too small to see, it happened in my friend's tank from simple online frag trading/bidding.

I prefer all cured purple rock so I don't have to cycle the tank, but nowadays I think new posters are using dry rock 60% of the time, new majority, and where they get their frags and fish from is the final say on imports for algae and disease + their QT habits if any.

 

[Z-man]

Throwing in my $.02 This was based on a 55 gallon tank.

There has been some conversation about the dry rock leaching phosphates in many other threads. I experienced this myself. My plan was to get a good base that I aquascaped including drilling holes to insert plugs with the dry rock. I purchased some 25# of live rock from TBS and yes there was some things I didn't want but for the most part it was great. I couldn't get my phosphates under control on a new tank setup and some of the undesirable algae loved the conditions. Once I was able to get the tank running for about 8 months with some intensive care, I LOVED the look and diversity in the tank.

I would do it all again the exact same way. There's a huge color difference to start but even seeing the coralline spread is part of the "fun" of watching life evolve. It takes time; that's the best piece of advice I give anyone that asks me about the hobby. Be patient!