Is Florida aquacultured rock *really* all that bad?

[hart24601]

Years ago when setting up tanks my favorite part was getting LR and all the organisms that came with it. However my tastes moved more to a coral-centric view and in particular reef crest style and I really got sick of hitchhikers that came with that rock.

My last two builds have been dry rock, ceramic rock and now tonga branch because I can't find ceramic anymore. It's pretty unlikely that I will ever use live rock again. I must prefer to add in what I want for critters. With how carefully I manage every other aspect of the tank from feeding to chemistry I don't like rolling the dice with inhabitants.

Of course if you use dry you must have a lot more patience for it to look pretty, but I think I see patience=reef keeping every time I read forums so I guess that is good, haha!

It's nice we have options to do either way. It's not like one way is wrong and the other is right, there is no better or worse here, just personal preference.

 

[KingJason]

2 time TBS user here. For me, half the fun of doing this is getting all the extra "stuff" from LR. I love watching it all. It's been easy to catch the crabs or remove something I don't want in the tank.

 

[Lasse]

As we say in Sweden - the taste is like the butt - diveded

Answer the question - What do I want of my reef - a living part of the nature in my living room or a colorful painting along my wall?

My personal taste is the living reef containing a polyculture of living things. If I only want something colourful to look at – it would probably be cheaper to buy a painting of Mattise – at least in the long run .

Remember – the big breakthrough of reef keeping was the Berlin method. It includes skimmer and living rocks from the nature. My aquariums always content a mix of living rocks and “dead” ones. I always try to get living rocks as fresh as possible – if it has algae and other things – good because it gives a good start for my clean-up crew. And I love all of the creatures that come with. They have a key role in my reefing philosophy.

Other people has other preferences – It’s OK for me – there is no right or wrong – only different points of views.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[magicstix]

TBS is the best!
I've used them 4-5 times now to start up tanks and every time is amazing. It never gets old!
Tons of life and biodiversity right from the start and little to no cycle. This last time I was registering nitrates within 24 hours. ;Jawdrop
Fish and coral starting to go in immediately.
Yeah, you may get a mantis or a couple little gorilla crabs.... so what?! . That's life. Literally. Take them out if you don't want them in there.
I'll take the barnacles, feather dusters, porcelain crabs, mithrax crabs, tunicates, sponges, macros, pistol shrimp, pods, porites, and other cool stuff any day over dead white rock.
I've never gotten anything from TBS that couldn't be removed.

Here's my TWO WEEK old tank.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...-mixed-reef-build.241805/page-68#post-3675742

Another benefit... no rock is taken from the reefs.
It used to be quarried rock (why "heavy and dense" was mentioned above) but no longer.
TBS now uses the Walt Smith man made rock. (and some pukani if that's your thing).

Wow, were all those peppermints hitchhikers?

 

[rbtmcardle]

Wow, were all those peppermints hitchhikers?

When you order "the package" from TBS you get 2 shipments of material..part 1 is sand and 1/2 of the live rock, and part 2 is the balance of live rock and a few serpent stars, peppermint shrimp, snails, hermits and various other gifts...I'm hoping for my second late this week. I received a serpent star, 3 hermits, a sally light foot and a multitude of anemones, macro algae, few different beneficial snails etc etc.

http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com/thepackage/index.html

 

[GoVols]

I used to get the Figi over night live rock and it was tops but unless got $ to burn it's very expensive these days.

The last live rock I got was Caribbean and it just not fair to compare it to the old real deal Figi. Overall I have been happy with it but it came with a lot of mantis shrimp.

Those are some tricky boogers to get rid of and took a fairly long time to get rid of all of them.

 

[Pat Clark]

I live in the Tampa
Area and all
My rock was aqua cultured from the bay....love the life that comes with it... hell I even get my water still from the bay.

 

[Maritimer]

Many years ago, a friend and I ordered liverock from the back of a magazine. The stuff came in cool shapes, including shelves, and though it wasn't particularly colorful, it was dripping with algaes, crustaceans and worms.

When I took up reefing again, just over a year ago, I happily ordered "Pukani Air Rock" from a website which promised some pretty fresh, lively stuff. Unboxing it, I was greeted with grey rock, devoid of any sign of life, save a few long-dead sponge skeletons and some red forams in the same condition. I'm sure there was bacteria in the rock - bacteria thrive in almost anything that's wet - but that was the totality of it. Quite the disappointment. Over the intervening time, I've gathered a small collection of isopods, Stomatella, Colonista, micro-brittle stars, asterina, bristle and spaghetti worms, limpets, chitons, and a very few sponges - but that's only the barest hint of the biology you could find in a patch of reef the same size.

The plan I harbor in my heart is for a tank that rewards close scrutiny with surprises. To that end, it seems that Florida rock is what's available. Is it easy to 'scape with? probably not - most of the pieces I've seen appear to be massive in form; rounded stones to boulders. (And there's that whole "can't spend days fooling around with it out of the water" thing - and the whole "can't put this piece on top of that piece, 'cause there's that nifty little bit of algae / sponge / coral on that one . . . " thing to deal with.) I've already got some dry and formerly dry shelves and branches.

I'm very much looking forward to ordering _live_ aquacultured rock from Florida, when I, my tank ... and my bank account ... are ready for it.

~Bruce

 

[magicstix]

Many years ago, a friend and I ordered liverock from the back of a magazine. The stuff came in cool shapes, including shelves, and though it wasn't particularly colorful, it was dripping with algaes, crustaceans and worms.

When I took up reefing again, just over a year ago, I happily ordered "Pukani Air Rock" from a website which promised some pretty fresh, lively stuff. Unboxing it, I was greeted with grey rock, devoid of any sign of life, save a few long-dead sponge skeletons and some red forams in the same condition. I'm sure there was bacteria in the rock - bacteria thrive in almost anything that's wet - but that was the totality of it. Quite the disappointment. Over the intervening time, I've gathered a small collection of isopods, Stomatella, Colonista, micro-brittle stars, asterina, bristle and spaghetti worms, limpets, chitons, and a very few sponges - but that's only the barest hint of the biology you could find in a patch of reef the same size.

The plan I harbor in my heart is for a tank that rewards close scrutiny with surprises. To that end, it seems that Florida rock is what's available. Is it easy to 'scape with? probably not - most of the pieces I've seen appear to be massive in form; rounded stones to boulders. (And there's that whole "can't spend days fooling around with it out of the water" thing - and the whole "can't put this piece on top of that piece, 'cause there's that nifty little bit of algae / sponge / coral on that one . . . " thing to deal with.) I've already got some dry and formerly dry shelves and branches.

I'm very much looking forward to ordering _live_ aquacultured rock from Florida, when I, my tank ... and my bank account ... are ready for it.

~Bruce

Same thing happened to me a couple years ago when I started up my office tank. In the late 90s I'd always buy Fiji uncured from my LFS and it'd be loaded with all kinds of critters. So not knowing any better, I ordered a box of "Uncured Fiji Live Rock" from a certain store with a den. When I opened the box I was greeted with ugly white death and, no lie, a fly crawled out of the stuff and flew away while I was putting it into my tank. I had thought I'd just been unlucky, but apparently that's how rock is these days...

What killed the Fiji/Marshall Islands/Tonga live rock trade anyway? The coup? International law? Overharvesting? It seems that what they do in Florida could just as easily be done in the South Pacific, and given the state of reefs there it seems like it'd be a good idea for repopulating them...

 

[d2mini]

Wow, were all those peppermints hitchhikers?

I lucked out.
I've been a long time customer and they were moving shop, so they tossed in some extras instead of having to move it all.
But so many neat things pop up. I've got more porcelain crabs in there right now than I can count. They all hitch hike in, hiding in the rock.
I opened one bag of sand and there was a huge Blenny sitting right on top! He's one of my favorite fish.

What killed the Fiji/Marshall Islands/Tonga live rock trade anyway? The coup? International law? Overharvesting? It seems that what they do in Florida could just as easily be done in the South Pacific, and given the state of reefs there it seems like it'd be a good idea for repopulating them...

This isn't my area of expertise, but pretty sure there would be lots of customs/import/licensing stuff to deal with as well as long ship times.
TBS ships in the morning and you are picking it up at the airport freight office a few hours later. It's shipped in water so it's all ALIVE. The way it should be.
The majority of their rock now comes from Walt Smith in Fiji. They are making their own rock and seeding it there, but like I said, by the time you get it....
So TBS has it shipped in dry, it's dumped into their lease in Tampa, and then when it's brought back up it's sent direct to you and you reap the benefits.

 

[Clayalaleona]

Pistol shrimp are harmless. I even purposely bought one for my tank at work with a goby. I thought he was dead since I hadn't seen him in a year but I got lucky the other day and glimpsed him peeking out from behind a rock...

I don't want to be all "kids these days..." but... Back in the day we fought mantis hitchhikers and aiptasia all the time, and we were glad for the privilege to serve our tanks! Back then we didn't have fancy lasers and copperband butterflies to kill the aiptasia; we strangled it with our bare tongs. Back then the only good mantis was a dead mantis, but now you have people who actually want to keep them as pets and will give you money for your pests!

But seriously, diversity = stability. I just don't think you can purposely "import" enough diversity to create a stable ecosystem in your tank. Parasites sneak in all the time on everything else we add to the tank. It seems a bit unfair to blame live rock when we still wind up with nudibranchs, redbugs, aiptasia, and pyramid snails on frags coming into our tanks.

The discussions in this thread, and the pictures especially, have me really leaning towards pulling the trigger on some FL aquacultured rock, unless Premium Aquatics gets some Manado rock sometime soon... Maybe I'm just too old-school with my fond memories of red flashlights at night playing "what the heck is that?!" in high school...

The only thing I'm really worried about are cirolanid isopods... Those actually seem scary and hard to deal with, unlike gorilla crabs or mantis...

Sure diversity can give you more stability but I'm pretty sure thats offset by everything you have to do to get rid of your pests lol
Lets call it a difference of opinions. I'm just not crazy about the look of it, looks... messy.

 

[Clayalaleona]

Same thing happened to me a couple years ago when I started up my office tank. In the late 90s I'd always buy Fiji uncured from my LFS and it'd be loaded with all kinds of critters. So not knowing any better, I ordered a box of "Uncured Fiji Live Rock" from a certain store with a den. When I opened the box I was greeted with ugly white death and, no lie, a fly crawled out of the stuff and flew away while I was putting it into my tank. I had thought I'd just been unlucky, but apparently that's how rock is these days...

What killed the Fiji/Marshall Islands/Tonga live rock trade anyway? The coup? International law? Overharvesting? It seems that what they do in Florida could just as easily be done in the South Pacific, and given the state of reefs there it seems like it'd be a good idea for repopulating them...

Freight, freight killed it. Even Walt Smith couldnt make enough money off of some of that rock. There is only so much space on planes and if its between sending 50 boxes of rock and 50 boxes of fish/corals exporters will always choose corals because 1) they weigh less and 2) its much more profitable.
Now its sent over via cargo boat instead of plane making its time out of water substantially more.
There's also the fact that Haiti exports TONS of rock all the time. Its cheaper to purchase and the freight is also super inexpensive(brought in by boat)so a lot of stores carry it. And obviously, Florida also produces a very similar product for a quarter of the price.

 

[Untamedrose]

Personally, hitchhikers are one of the best parts of a reef tank. I really like not really knowing whats in there, finding stuff, photographing it, the research finding the exact species of whatsits...which in some case means diggin in 1800's paperwork b/c thats the last time any scientist bothered writing anything down. Find it all fascinating.
It's a totally step up for the kids that Had to flip over every rock

Other people didnt grow up looking for bugs and are scaredy cats

PS...bristleworms are no longer considered Bad guys anymore.

 

[magicstix]

Personally, hitchhikers are one of the best parts of a reef tank. I really like not really knowing whats in there, finding stuff, photographing it, the research finding the exact species of whatsits...which in some case means diggin in 1800's paperwork b/c thats the last time any scientist bothered writing anything down. Find it all fascinating.
It's a totally step up for the kids that Had to flip over every rock

Other people didnt grow up looking for bugs and are scaredy cats

PS...bristleworms are no longer considered Bad guys anymore.

I know... I really mean fireworms, just hard to break old habits.

 

[scriptmonkey]

Personally, hitchhikers are one of the best parts of a reef tank. I really like not really knowing whats in there, finding stuff, photographing it, the research finding the exact species of whatsits...which in some case means diggin in 1800's paperwork b/c thats the last time any scientist bothered writing anything down. Find it all fascinating.
It's a totally step up for the kids that Had to flip over every rock

Other people didnt grow up looking for bugs and are scaredy cats

PS...bristleworms are no longer considered Bad guys anymore.

I was looking at it like it was Christmas or your birthday. Sometimes you get the bike you always wanted or sometimes you get socks and underwear. While the later might be not as exciting, at least there was a brief level of excitement while you opened it.

 

[Mike N]

Just make sure you actually utilize the airport shipping option. I went with gulfliverock and got some shipped via fedex, not wet, shipped in damp newspaper. The ungodly smell emanating from that box is something I never want to experience again. ;Vomit;Vomit;Vomit;Vomit

 

[magicstix]

Just make sure you actually utilize the airport shipping option. I went with gulfliverock and got some shipped via fedex, not wet, shipped in damp newspaper. The ungodly smell emanating from that box is something I never want to experience again. ;Vomit;Vomit;Vomit;Vomit

TBS only ships airline. I just put in my order. I asked for a mix of Pukani and their 'old' rock because it has more corals on it according to them. Pics will eventually follow. :>

 

[jefra]

Not only is Florida live rock quite heavy, which compounds its already expensive price tag, but it's also minimally porous. It may be covered in turnicates and barancles, but other than that, it's dyed cement chunks with a few large holes. BRS Pukani, however, is insanely light, and amazingly porous. I really have difficulty believing that mature, equally sized pieces of these two rock types have anywhere near the same biofiltration capabilities. There are very serious pros and cons to both. Florida live rock does have unparalleled biodiversity, which includes bad hitchhikers, but I think the rock itself is rubbish. Dry base rock doesn't look as nice until coralline spreads and may have a ton of dead organics, but if you get a porous variety, I think it's leaps and bounds better than Florida live rock.

With that being said, I'll likely always use a combo of the two, especially since I'm right across the bay from TBS. I'd love to use solely Florida rock but until more porous seed rock is used, I think I'll stick to just a few pieces.

 

[magicstix]

Not only is Florida live rock quite heavy, which compounds its already expensive price tag, but it's also minimally porous. It may be covered in turnicates and barancles, but other than that, it's dyed cement chunks with a few large holes. BRS Pukani, however, is insanely light, and amazingly porous. I really have difficulty believing that mature, equally sized pieces of these two rock types have anywhere near the same biofiltration capabilities. There are very serious pros and cons to both. Florida live rock does have unparalleled biodiversity, which includes bad hitchhikers, but I think the rock itself is rubbish. Dry base rock doesn't look as nice until coralline spreads and may have a ton of dead organics, but if you get a porous variety, I think it's leaps and bounds better than Florida live rock.

With that being said, I'll likely always use a combo of the two, especially since I'm right across the bay from TBS. I'd love to use solely Florida rock but until more porous seed rock is used, I think I'll stick to just a few pieces.

Where do you get that Florida rock is cement? Most Florida rock is quarried Florida bedrock, which is ancient coral skeleton, unless you're talking about the places using that Walt Smith purple rock to seed...

 

[jefra]

Where do you get that Florida rock is cement? Most Florida rock is quarried Florida bedrock, which is ancient coral skeleton, unless you're talking about the places using that Walt Smith purple rock to seed...

Yes, I'm talking about the Walt Smith rock, and "cement" was hyperbolic of me. The Walt Smith rock I've gotten has always been too heavy, unporous, and in boring shapes.