Kole Eye tang demise in QT

[linus.chan]

I just woke up to my kole eye tang that was in QT dead. This was a pretty big surprise given that it seemed to be doing well, eating swimming and generally active and alert.

I have a flame wrasse in QT with it who so far seems okay. They had been in QT for about 3 weeks (just shy, around 20 days).

I was going to start on prazipro today, and just did for the flame wrasse. I dipped the tang in freshwater, but did not see any flukes or external parasites.

After the dip though I think I can see some discoloration, and potentially some black spots? Anyone have advice and what my next protocol should be? I do have CP on hand, but am nervous about it, though recent use by both humble and others seems to indicate it is safe for flame wrasses.

Any information would be appreciated- for behavior, eating well, was eating sprung’s sea veggies as well as eating reef frenzy. Only change was that I removed a bag of zeolite, youth my ammonia badge shows 0 ammonia. Using a small corner filter for filtration.

 

[HotRocks]

The discoloration is normal for a deceased fish.

The spots are also not out of the ordinary. The FW dip will remove mucus coat etc of a deceased fish.

I would not use CP on your flame wrasse, I would use copper. Preferably copper power with a Hanna checker to monitor Cu level.

 

[linus.chan]

The discoloration is normal for a deceased fish.

The spots are also not out of the ordinary. The FW dip will remove mucus coat etc of a deceased fish.

I would not use CP on your flame wrasse, I would use copper. Preferably copper power with a Hanna checker to monitor Cu level.

So for clarity, you don't see any specific signs of disease? (especially nothing that would immediately point to velvet or ich that would force a choice on CP or copper).

So far, from anecdotally collected information, copper has been very difficult for fairy wrasses, so while some have had success using a slower ramp up, others have had deaths. It does seem more have had recent success with CP, specifically with flame wrasses too.

But if i can hold off on using either CP or copper will do so.

IF anyone thinks there may be velvet, let me know. (The tang was not swimming erratically, though i don't have a powerhead so don't know if it would have tried to swim against it).

I really really really really don't want to lose this wrasse.

 

[4FordFamily]

So for clarity, you don't see any specific signs of disease? (especially nothing that would immediately point to velvet or ich that would force a choice on CP or copper).

So far, from anecdotally collected information, copper has been very difficult for fairy wrasses, so while some have had success using a slower ramp up, others have had deaths. It does seem more have had recent success with CP, specifically with flame wrasses too.

But if i can hold off on using either CP or copper will do so.

IF anyone thinks there may be velvet, let me know. (The tang was not swimming erratically, though i don't have a powerhead so don't know if it would have tried to swim against it).

I really really really really don't want to lose this wrasse.

We have quarantined and treated several wrasse, even several fairy wrasse in copper power (a reliable chelated copper) and using the Hanna copper checker. These include several fairy wrasse including a couple labouti, solar, lineatus, pintail, and a couple others.

Wrasse are quite resilient to ich and often even velvet. In an observation period it’s not uncommon for them to remain symptom-free but become effective “Typhoid Marys” to the home display tanks. Their thick slime coats, mucous cocoons for sleeping, and some that bury under the sand keeps them sheltered from the parasites, largely. Their gills however often harbor a few.

Wrasse are more sensitive to CP than they are to copper, as I am being told. Personally, I have no experience using CP for any fish, full-disclosure. I have however suggested others use it and documented the results.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/
You may find this useful^

So without treatment, wrasse are likely to introduce pathogens you do not want in to your display.

 

[4FordFamily]

Also I do not see any obvious signs of disease from the tang. Did it start to lose color a day or two before? Swim toward the top? Swim in to power heads? Stop eating?

Many of those symptoms may indicate one of the rampant bacterial infections that are running amuk right now.

 

[HotRocks]

We have quarantined and treated several wrasse, even several fairy wrasse in copper power (a reliable chelated copper) and using the Hanna copper checker. These include several fairy wrasse including a couple labouti, solar, lineatus, pintail, and a couple others.

Wrasse are quite resilient to ich and often even velvet. In an observation period it’s not uncommon for them to remain symptom-free but become effective “Typhoid Marys” to the home display tanks. Their thick slime coats, mucous cocoons for sleeping, and some that bury under the sand keeps them sheltered from the parasite largely. Their gills however often harbor a few.

Wrasse are more sensitive to CP than they are to copper, as I am being told. Personally, I have no experience using CP for any fish, full-disclosure. I have however suggested others use it and documented the results.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/
You may find this useful^

So without treatment, wrasse are likely to introduce pathogens you do not want in to your display.

I have also treated several species in the macropharyngodon genus of wrasses with copper power.

Copper is the better choice for your wrasse IMO. I would add a powerhead/wavemaker to your QT as when medicating it is very necessary equipment for proper oxygenation.

I also would not add any wrasse to a DT without copper treatment prior to.

 

[linus.chan]

No indication of any disease for the tang, was eating well, not swimming to the top and i don't have a powerhead (i have a filter, using an airstone, and a separate airstone for more surface agitation).

I have both CP and copper power on hand. Here are the reasons i am wary of copper:

1) the ability to properly read the amount of copper has been a source of difficulty. maybe the hanna checker is different?

2) the recommendation of increasing the copper concentration over the course of several days makes me nervous. This is clearly a sign that wrasses don't tolerate copper as well, and using different concentrations over the course of time just introduces new variables.

I don't want to get into too much of a debate about CP for fairy wrasses.

I know that for a long time the common wisdom was that CP was not recommended. However, just to give some insight, ever since i found out that Humblefish has used it with success, and an experienced wrasse caretake used it at 60mg/gallon dosage (which is 20mg higher than usual) specifically for a flame wrasse it makes it at least a potential alternative to me.

To be clear, my CP is also the stuff from diamondback drugs and not from other sources.

I will treat with one or the other before putting into DT, and will be rubbing several rabbits foots, doing dances to the fish disease gods and anything else i can think of to bring me luck. Now if you have experience using CP for flame wrasses and NOT had success, please let me know.

I know that velvet can be asymptomatic, so do folks think without any signs of infection on the tang (or behavior) i should immediately start CP/Copper, or can i wait for PRazi to go through its course?

Linus

 

[HotRocks]

Its your fish, your choice. Here is what I have been doing with several wrasse lately.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

My opinion of wrasse copper sensitivity has changed greatly since the discovery of the Hanna Copper Checker. The only thing I have lost a wrasse to in QT since using the method above is a spinal injury.
The consensus did used to be that they were sensitive. Now that we can accurately monitor the Cu level with the hanna checker providing an accurate digital readout and treat just above the therapeutic level it has changed the game.

In theory you should be able to dose your QT up to 1.0ppm and then take the next three days raising the level to therapeutic.

The fact that you have diamondback CP Is definitely a plus. @Humblefish has had success with CP and fairy and hali wrasse.

 

[lagatbezan]

The hanna checker is digital and will give you relatively accurate concentration reading as oppose to the conventional ones that you have to guess and match up to a color chart. It makes reading copper levels extremely easy and effortless. no more guessing.

 

[4FordFamily]

Not to mention there are concerns with CP degradation I think we will have more info on this soon but it seems that will be perhaps more difficult. @Humblefish is working on a way to fix/improve this but for not it’s something to consider.

Copper is a poison for all fish, but we’ve learned that the incorrect used copper level and ammonia was responsible for most deaths, we hypothesize. Angels for example do just fine in copper but do not with trace ammonia and lower oxygen levels; extraneous variables present also when copper is used in a new QT.

 

[linus.chan]

THis is good to hear. Will purchase a hanna checker, and does Copper Power degrade? I just got the CP (about 4 weeks ago), but my copper power is about 18 months old.

So- it sounds like for those advocating for copper-

1) make sure there are no trace ammonia in the water. (i assume by using ammonia badge system)
2) good water agitation
3) anything else?

 

[lagatbezan]

There usually is an expiration date on the copper power bottle.
Make sure you do NOT use any prime or ammonia reducers in conjunction with copper.

 

[linus.chan]

Would that include poly filter? I had used polyfilter and zeolite, but have removed both when starting on Prazipro today.

 

[HotRocks]

THis is good to hear. Will purchase a hanna checker, and does Copper Power degrade? I just got the CP (about 4 weeks ago), but my copper power is about 18 months old.

So- it sounds like for those advocating for copper-

1) make sure there are no trace ammonia in the water. (i assume by using ammonia badge system)
2) good water agitation
3) anything else?

CP can degrade in the water.

Copper power doesn't degrade. It's very stable in water.

It can be absorbed by certain media. You will know if it is being absorbed. If you use this and don't get comparable test results then you are encountering absorption, which will usually stabilize once whatever is causing the absorption has reached it's capacity.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

 

[linus.chan]

So would it be the consensus that i need to treat now and not wait for symptoms even though the Tang did not show any signs?

 

[HotRocks]

So would it be the consensus that i need to treat now and not wait for symptoms even though the Tang did not show any signs?

Wrasse will often harbor parasites without symptoms due to their extremely thick mucus layer. If I were you yes, I'd start treatment.

 

[linus.chan]

readig over the ratios on copper power, it looks like you don't recommend treating at same time as General Cure, i assume that would apply with co-treatment with Prazipro, correct? I will wait (which means i can also get the hanna checker in time).

Any issues with treating with CP and prazi at the same time?

 

[HotRocks]

readig over the ratios on copper power, it looks like you don't recommend treating at same time as General Cure, i assume that would apply with co-treatment with Prazipro, correct? I will wait (which means i can also get the hanna checker in time).

Any issues with treating with CP and prazi at the same time?

I do not like to mix prazi and copper. I would prefer to use General Cure. Less chance of a bacterial bloom. Combining praziquantel and copper is risky. Plus it sucks the O2 out of the tank rapidly. Heavy heavy agitation is necessary.

I would finish your prazi treatment and then move to copper. Much safer. Only combine if you absolutely have to.

If I have a fish with a heavy fluke infestation, I would just FW dip the fish a couple times to remove most of them then treat post copper.

 

[linus.chan]

Okay, I am just using prazi as a precaution. If I were to choose to use CP, is it also not recommended to use at same time?

 

[ScooterV]

Liquid Prazi and CP is even more difficult. If you do it at ALL you need to use a powder form of prazi. Something like GC, which also includes Metro, or a pure praziquental powder you can find from some places. Liquid PraziPro isn't a good idea with CP. CP is awesome still though