My Current QT Process

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by HotRocks, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

    On arrival day, I match salinity in QT to arriving fish or make sure it's a touch lower (Usually 1.018).

    Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

    I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
    I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

    Dosage for food soaked meds:
    Add 1 scoop of GC (scoop that comes with focus) + 1 scoop focus per 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food. I add selcon + a touch of garlic to help dissolve the meds.
    *You can also use Metroplex in place of general cure, it does however only treat for intestinal parasites instead of intestinal parasites + worms*. This food can be refrigerated once medicated. Is for 3-5 days, toss and make new.

    Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 2.0PPM. increasing the level .25ppm per day or several small doses (the time is less important than the small increments). I do this by dosing half of the daily increase in the am and the other half in the pm.

    At this point I am watching very closely for external symptoms of bacterial infections. If one arises or a fish prone to infection stops eating then I dose Spectogram (Kanamycin+Nitrofurazone) and continue throughout copper. You can also use Kanaplex+furan-2. The WCs are fun maintaining the therapeutic Cu level. But once you have the hang of it, it's not bad. Copper has to be pre-dosed into new SW prior to adding to tank to keep Cu level from dropping below therapeutic.

    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

    Also, If you are combining ABX + Copper you need heavy agitation at the surface of the water. This can be best achieved by running a powerhead aimed upward at the surface. I also run air stone and HOB filter. The combination of these meds will deplete the water column of oxygen at a heavy rate so you have to compensate.

    Keep in mind ABX are slow to work on fish. They are likely to be even slower in the presence of copper due to the weakened immune system. So the Spectogram IME has always prevented infection from worsening. Some have healed. I do also keep Sulfaplex and Neoplex handy for certain types of infections. They are safe to use with copper.

    After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.

    After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.

    Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.

    14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

    This is a very aggressive approach. I can tell you though I have improved my success rate significantly since adapting to this method. It is not bulletproof. The bottom line is you may have to changeup in the middle of the process due to unforeseen circumstances.

    After the Hanna checker discovery I was getting fish through copper without much issue, but using the same tank and treating for 30 days I was losing fish in the 20-30 day range to bacterial infection. So now using multiple tanks and reducing the copper exposure time along with having the proper ABX to be used with/without copper it is what worked best for me. We are still working on tweaking it a bit. Most of this system was designed/adapted with much help of @Humblefish + @4FordFamily. To keep up with the unfortunate condition we have recently been receiving it may have to be altered as time passes.

    I also preform FW dips if I see a fish scratching in copper (After 7 days at the therapeutic level) to check for flukes and/or provide temporary relief. If a fish arrives with velvet/velvet symptoms they get a FW dip as well as a 90 min Ruby Reef rally bath per @Humblefish's normal protocol.

    Fish with suspected ammonia burn would receive a 30 min bath in Methalyne Blue.

    My Personal Medication list:
    Copper Power
    API General Cure
    NFG http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html
    Spectrogram http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram
    Kanaplex
    Metroplex
    Neoplex
    Sulfaplex
    Furan-2
    Methalyne Blue
    Ruby Reef Rally
    Formalin

    This is a very helpful link by @Humblefish regarding fish meds:
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medications-to-keep-on-hand.213574/

    Couple other great links regarding QT:
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/unread
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/unread
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/

    UPDATE: We have discovered at least one strain of velvet that survives 1.75 PPM copper, we recommend increasing to 2.0PPM to eradicate it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2019

  2. PGT253

    PGT253 Active Member

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    Did you have any experience adding wrasses directly to predosed 1.0pm Cu water?
     
  3. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes Several. To name a few:
    Labouti
    Lineatus
    Radiant
    Potters leopards
    Fem
     
  4. dwest

    dwest Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Thank you. I use your methods successfully for wrasses. HUGE help.
     
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  5. PGT253

    PGT253 Active Member

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    Thanks. I wish I knew this when I got a batch of wrasses last week. I'm 6 days in QT with TTM
     
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  6. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Sorry I'm a week late!

    We are discovering that fish were known to be copper sensitive, may not be as sensitive as previously thought with the accuracy of the Hanna checker.

    I have used this exact protocol on a couple dozen fish in addition to the wrasses.
    Gem tang
    Achilles tang
    Yellow belly blue hippo
    Orchid Dotty
    Clownfish
    Regal angel
    Potters angel

    For example. The particular regal that went through this process acted exactly as regals do. Hard to get to eat. The copper didn't seem to make it any worse. I still had the fish eating within three days of arrival while increasing the copper. I did have to use live foods at first.
     
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  7. Maritimer

    Maritimer Moderator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter CTARS Member R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    I just un-bookmarked your earlier post, in order to bookmark this one.

    You, sir . . . rock.

    ~Bruce
     
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  8. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks Bruce! Glad it's of help!
     
  9. Thomashtom

    Thomashtom Well-Known Member

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    What does ABX stand for anti bacterial meds? Thanks Tom
     
  10. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes ABX is just short for antibiotics in general.
     
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  11. Thomashtom

    Thomashtom Well-Known Member

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    Ok thanks
     
  12. Rython

    Rython Active Member

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    I'm using this method on my current batch of fish. I'm only on day 4 but no problems so far. Notably all fish (including 3 wrasses) are still eating after being introduced to 1.0ppm copper and raising .25 per day.

    Copperband Butterfly
    Linespot Flasher Wrasse
    Canary Halichoeres Wrasse
    Red Lined Halichoeres Wrasse
     
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  13. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Glad it's going well. Honestly I don't think copper really supresses appetite until you are at a level that causes other issues which causes the fish to stop eating.

    CBB doing well? That is a fish I have never QTd before. Plenty of experience with tangs angels and wrasses.
     
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  14. Rython

    Rython Active Member

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    This is my second try with a CBB. First one died on day 10ish of NFG treatment to velvet, because I was more afraid of bacterial infection with a butterfly, so wanted to treat for that first, and then go to copper. I didn't recognize the velvet symptoms in time and he died before I got to the copper. I didn't realize there was a way to do both.

    This one is doing great under the new protocol. In fact, all the fish are doing better in pre-copper dosed water than any batch I have received into copper free water by this point. They are all out being active. I usually have one or two hiding by this point.

    I fed baby brine on receiving day and day 2 as I introduced GC laced LRS. As of today he's only getting the medicated LRS and he's still eating well. That was the first time I fed live food too, and I really like how that worked out. It was almost like triggering that kind of aggressive hunting/feeding response made them comfortable enough to come out earlier/more often, and all of the fish, including the CBB transitioned right into LRS. Maybe the CBB would have eaten it anyway, but this has been such an improved experience that i'll have live food ready on day 1 every time. I also started a culture of white worms. It's not ready yet, but i'm eager to see how they react to those early on too. I think this might actually be another key (for me) to successful QT.
     
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  15. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    This mirrors my experience as well.

    Keep us posted!

    I should probably edit my original post to include that I always have life foods on hand for picky eaters. Also that areation is key when using ABX + Copper as it's critical to keep enough oxygen in the water with all of the meds combined. Also a lower QT temp 76-78 degrees helps with this as well.
     
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  16. Pbh-reef

    Pbh-reef Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Thank you for taking the time to write all this out so clearly. I am new to the QT game and have a question for you about the 14 day in copper transfer -

    Could I get the same result by taking the fish on day 14 and putting it in a sterile bucket without copper.

    Then dry the whole tank for 24+ hours.

    Then put the fish back in the tank.

    The issue I see is the hob filter’s pump won’t dry out in 24 hours so maybe this system would work better with a air pump powered sponge or a second hob filter?

    I realize for most people having a second QT tank set up will work better. In my home there is no space for a second tank and I’m trying to figure out if I can get the benefit of a reduced time in copper in some way. From my understanding this makes bacterial infections less likely. And since I am so new to treating fish and will be getting a max of 4 fish for a nano tank I’d like to avoid messing around with more medications than copper and general cure.
     
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  17. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    The tank and all media and everything that was previously wet would need to be dry and I think this is far too risky. Perhaps store a second tank and equipment and trade between them. There is a lot of risk of error with your plan. If you bleached everything all media, nets, anything wet with each tank for 24 hours that would probably work.

    Edit: You would still have to have them in something for 24 hours without ammonia as mentioned below.

    I would just treat for 30 days if a 2nd QT isn’t feasible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
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  18. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I would be a little concerned with ammonia and stress using a bucket for more than a hr or two.

    You could use a rubbermaid bin or tote. This could get you more water volume. Still cheap and easy for a temporary holding tank while you are sterilizing.

    You will want to bleach and allow the tank and all components to dry completely for 24-48 hours. I actually dose bleach and allow the tanks to run for 48 hours before draining them when I am sterilizing.
     
  19. Pbh-reef

    Pbh-reef Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Thank you both so much
     
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  20. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    To add to this — if you have room for a Rubbermaid bin you should just buy another cheap quarantine :)
     
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