Limewater vs two part

[jason2459]

Could be still adding the same amount.

Provide evidence that evaporation rate change over a year is more than 20%, I will take your argument seriously. I order for that kind of difference there has to be some extreme changes. It's just physics.

Sure for evidence. No for adding the same amount. My ATO didn't kick on at all yesterday. Twice the day before. And once today. My ATO has many failsafes including a osc timer. But its main trigger is a Madison float switch I bought from autotopoff.com back in 2009. As soon as it drops a couple millimeters it kicks on the ato and as soon as it goes up a couple millimeters it turns right off. Doesn't take much either way.

I'm really not sure what's being debated or why there needs to be convincing. Do you believe I'm doing something wrong? I'm uncertain what it is.

 

[bif24701]

My evaporation is less than 3 gallons give or take . Less than 1% of my totally water volume. Ever if my change in evaporated water changes over the year by 20% (in reality it's no where near that) then that's only about .6 gallon or so. So after a whole week if I made no adjustments for the whole year that's 1.2 gallons a week difference. Not enough to cause a problem. However seasons change gradually so 20% change is going to happen slowly.

 

[bif24701]

Sure for evidence. No for adding the same amount. I my ATO didn't kick on at all yesterday. Twice the day before. And once today. My ATO has many failsafes including a osc timer. But its main trigger is a Madison float switch I bought from autotopoff.com back in 2009. As soon as it drops a couple millimeters it kicks on the ato and as soon as it goes up a couple millimeters it turns right off. Doesn't take much either way.

I'm really not sure what's being debated or why there needs to ve convincing. Do you believe I'm doing something wrong? I'm uncertain what it is.

The debate is that the change in evaporation rate has a effect on dosing a consistent amount each day vs using float switches. My argument is that the rate of change is so negligible that it is of almost no concern.

Evaporation rate is probably is most stable action in a reef tank because it is 100% based in physics, not biology.

So, a system of ATO/Kalk dosed at a set rate everyday is safe, effective, and easy implementation.

 

[bif24701]

All I have to do is look at my sump and say geeze, my water level increases 1mm this week, guess I'll make. Slight adjustment to the dosing rate. Problem adverted.

The point is there are far fewer components to fail and create a crash.

APEX sockets are 99x more likely to get stuck in the OFF position. Even if I don't catch it for a week I doubt it would crash my tank.

 

[jason2459]

The debate is that the change in evaporation rate has a effect on dosing a consistent amount each day vs using float switches. My argument is that the rate of change is so negligible that it is of almost no concern.

Evaporation rate is probably is most stable action in a reef tank because it is 100% based in physics, not biology.

So, a system of ATO/Kalk dosed at a set rate everyday is safe, effective, and easy implementation.

I believe I've stated twice my dosing amount is constant. I did tweak it here and there when first starting out but settled on the rate I'm dosing now.

However, my evaporation rate is not. And I know I can suck down my ATO reservoir very quickly when its snowing a lot. And everything in between.

Not sure where biology came into play?

 

[bif24701]

I believe I've stated twice my dosing amount is constant. I did tweak it here and there when first starting out but settled on the rate I'm dosing now.

However, my evaporation rate is not. And I know I can suck down my ATO reservoir very quickly when its snowing a lot. And everything in between.

Not sure where biology came into play?

In all honesty I don't care what YOU do because you are not the OP. You took a jab at my advice to OP and I'm just backing it up with facts and some hard numbers.

If you wish to continue please provide us with some hard numbers to prove the claim that evaporation rate is significant enough to cause problems with this method.

I never asked you about your Kalk dosing rate because it doesn't matter. You made the claim that it couldn't be done based on a set timed/amount because the evaporation changes would not work. I have provided some math to help illustrate how insignificant the change would be and thus proving that it is a safe system.

 

[jason2459]

In all honesty I don't care what YOU do because you are not the OP. You took a jab at my advice to OP and I'm just backing it up with facts and some hard numbers.

If you wish to continue please provide us with some hard numbers to prove the claim that evaporation rate is significant enough to cause problems with this method.

I never asked you about your Kalk dosing rate because it doesn't matter. You made the claim that it couldn't be done based on a set timed/amount because the evaporation changes would not work. I have provided some math to help illustrate how insignificant the change would be and thus proving that it is a safe system.

I think you need to take a step back. I believe I liked your post to the OP and don't believe I took a jab at anyone. Just provided my experience.

I never said your approach could not work. I have stated my preferences, what I do, and what I've observed.

If you do not see that and have taken offense by something I posted I do apologize but mean only helpful input to the OP. Not to you or to tell you you are wrong.


I have stated my evaporation rate varies and can very a lot seasonally. I know I'm not the only one that has experienced this as well. I also gave you some numbers of times my ATO has and can kick off. It varies.

 

[bif24701]

I may try dosing 1 ml of limewater a few times a day via my ghl profilux doser and let my ato be water only. Too many times ive adjusted its sensor now and had it put too much at once.

Separating the two is good advice, ESPECIALLY if your ATO system isn't consistent.

All the more reason to implement my method.

As your need for Kalk increases it's addition will be almost equal to the amount of ATO RODI water you are adding and you will have to decide to either quit Kalk and do 2 part or use Kalk in ATO. For me, I assumed I would have to use 2 part by now with over 60+ SPS frags and colonies but I haven't, Kalk does everything I need.

I've had 5 gallon buckets of two part and the equipment to do it for 12 months but I like Kalk so much I haven't used it.

I like Kalk because it's easy, safe, just as effective. Doesn't change salinity. Doesn't effect chloride and sulfite ions and I very rarely every have to add MAG.

Kalk is grrrrrreat!

 

[bif24701]

I think you need to take a step back. I believe I liked your post to the OP and don't believe I took a jab at anyone. Just provided my experience.

I never said your approach could not work. I have stated my preferences, what I do, and what I've observed.

If you do not see that and have taken offense by something I posted I do apologize but mean only helpful input to the OP. Not to you or to tell you you are wrong.


I have stated my evaporation rate varies and can very a lot seasonally. I know I'm not the only one that has experienced this as well. I also gave you some numbers of times my ATO has and can kick off. It varies.

I'm not offended at all, in fact I expect that others would resist my new ideas.

I am just demanding some real evidence to back up your statement.

"varies a lot" "I know I'm not the o my one". These statements are not evidence at all, too general to make any kind of conclusion of the method can work or not. You are also assuming what other experience.

The numbers you gave are useless because there is no way to know how much water is being added each time, or could and probably does change. So there is no way to determine how much evaporation change is occurring.

 

[jason2459]

... However seasons change gradually so 20% change is going to happen slowly.

My changes can happen quickly...

...

If you wish to continue please provide us with some hard numbers to prove the claim that evaporation rate is significant enough to cause problems with this method.
....

And can vary day to day in just a week during a transition period between dry and humid times.

Dry (ato kicks on more) vs humid (kicka on less) over just a couple day period

Going back to a cold March. Can see the snow kick in the ATO

I'm sure I've saved off some charts in the past as well in my long running journal thread if you wish for me to pull more numbers.

I do not mind being questioned or having questions. I do not like the anger or that you've appeared to become upset over this.

 

[jason2459]

I'm not offended at all, in fact I expect that others would resist my new ideas.

I am just demanding some real evidence to back up your statement.

"varies a lot" "I know I'm not the o my one". These statements are not evidence at all, too general to make any kind of conclusion of the method can work or not. You are also assuming what other experience.

The numbers you gave are useless because there is no way to know how much water is being added each time, or could and probably does change. So there is no way to determine how much evaporation change is occurring.

When it normally takes me 2-3 weeks between filling up my ATO and all of a sudden it takes me a few days to a week. That's telling my my volume of water that was dosed has increased.

I have not resisted your idea. It just would not work for me to not have an ATO to take over when my evaporation rate increases over and above my separate limewater dosing.

 

[bif24701]

My changes can happen quickly...





And can vary day to day in just a week during a transition period between dry and humid times.

Dry (ato kicks on more) vs humid (kicka on less) over just a couple day period

Going back to a cold March. Can see the snow kick in the ATO

I'm sure I've saved off some charts in the past as well in my long running journal thread if you wish for me to pull more numbers.

I do not mind being questioned or having questions. I do not like the anger or that you've appeared to become upset over this.

Don't confuse enthusiasm for anger.

I really appreciate the data, however as a scientist there is no way I can use that. The data is incomplete. I need to know exactly how much is added each time.

According to what you gave me however I can easily conclude that your pump or something is not consistent because it is activating and inactivating for different lengths of time. That's tells me that there is some inconsistencies in your system. It in no way effects it's function because ATOs by their nature adjust them selves. It's an effective system for adding RODI but not good for maintaining a stable Kalk dose.

 

[bif24701]

I'm going to standby this until it ends or I have no choice but to accept complete data that concludes the method is unsafe and ineffective.

Sorry OP LOL.

 

[bif24701]

I'm not upset at all [emoji23]. I'm not saying step back or you need to chill, in fact I'm saying Bring it! Haha. The only results of this is either we make no conclusion, or I discover that my method is flawed, or we prove me right and I can continue to share my method with the world.

 

[jason2459]

Don't confuse enthusiasm for anger.

I really appreciate the data, however as a scientist there is no way I can use that. The data is incomplete. I need to know exactly how much is added each time.

According to what you gave me however I can easily conclude that your pump or something is not consistent because it is activating and inactivating for different lengths of time. That's tells me that there is some inconsistencies in your system. It in no way effects it's function because ATOs by their nature adjust them selves. It's an effective system for adding RODI but not good for maintaining a stable Kalk dose.

When you say you do not care and capitalize words it comes off as anger. And when you say you think I have taken a jab at you that comes off as being upset.

Yes, the inconsistency in my system is evaporation.

You wanted to see some data so I provided some with a quick graph lookup. I've been watching my ATO and filling it for years. Experience can be sited in papers. My experience is that I fill my ATO reservoir more often at certain times of the year compared to others. My experience is that in the winter my ATO kicks in more often and have to fill even quicker. My experience is when it snows several days in a row I'm filling up my ATO extremely quick.

I also believe there are more consistent ways to dose limewater then an ATO. TMZ provided me the nudge to separate my limewater dosing and ATO.

And at the same time many people have used limewater in the ATO very successfully for decades.

 

[jason2459]

I'm not upset at all [emoji23]. I'm not saying step back or you need to chill, in fact I'm saying Bring it! Haha. The only results of this is either we make no conclusion, or I discover that my method is flawed, or we prove me right and I can continue to share my method with the world.

By all means. Share your method. Some people it may work for. Others it may not. I didn't dispute that once.

 

[bif24701]

When you say you do not care and capitalize words it comes off as anger. And when you say you think I have taken a jab at you that comes off as being upset.

Yes, the inconsistency in my system is evaporation.

You wanted to see some data so I provided some with a quick graph lookup. I've been watch my ATO and filling it for years. Experience can be sited in papers. My experience is that I fill my ATO reservoir more often at certain times of the year compared to others. My experience is that in the winter my ATO kicks in more often and have to fill even quicker. My experience is when it snows several days in a row I'm filling up my ATO extremely quick.

I also believe there are more consistent ways to dose limewater then an ATO. TMZ provided me the nudge to separate my limewater dosing and ATO.

And at the same time many people have used limewater in the ATO very successfully for decades.

I'm not saying there is not a change in evaporation rates. I'm saying that the rate of change is predictable so changes can easily be made. In my case I have a 180 gallon display and I must use full concentration Kalk so that my ALK and Cal stays consistent. I know that not everyone has that connivance of the Kalk need and ATO match up so well. I do like your method, it is safe, effective, and easy. All the right keys to a stable system.

Is your sump in a basement or something where it experiences weather extremes? Understand that most people keep there entire system under their display where humidity and temperature would be even more stable than within the home.

 

[bif24701]

I am willing to agree that my system may not be the best method for you. Not one single method of anything will work for anyone everyone. If I may be so bold however to state that the far majority could implement a Kalk/ATO system based on times intervals. Even if there are swings in the end it averages.

 

[jason2459]

Yes, my sump is in a finished basement. Dehumidifiers (2x 70 pint units) run from spring to fall.

 

[bif24701]

Yes, my sump is in a finished basement. Dehumidifiers (2x 70 pint units) run from spring to fall.

Strange. I has always assume that basements where great for staying warm in winter and cool in summer. Maintaining a consistent environment, is that not true?

The dehumidifier, that could be why your rates changes so much. Makes more sense now, because that could very easily drop the humidity very very low thus causing huge amounts of water to evaporate, and at some point they fill up and stop until emptied.