Limewater vs two part

[Cory]

The good news is nothing died!

So what about the high ph in limewater vs no ph increase in two part? Ph doesnt increase with two part much right?

 

[kazikage42]

The good news is nothing died!

So what about the high ph in limewater vs no ph increase in two part? Ph doesnt increase with two part much right?

2 part don't increase pH, alot of surface agitation can help with ph

 

[bif24701]

The good news is nothing died!

So what about the high ph in limewater vs no ph increase in two part? Ph doesnt increase with two part much right?

If you use soda ash yes it can raise pH, some. Usually not like Kalk though.

 

[DBR_Reef]

The debate is that the change in evaporation rate has a effect on dosing a consistent amount each day vs using float switches. My argument is that the rate of change is so negligible that it is of almost no concern.

You may have a very stable evaporation rate, but mine varies from 1.5 gallons per day in the summer to just over 5 gallons during the driest and coldest days of the winter. I usually recommend dosing Kalk independently because of this- if I used it in a ATO my values would be all over the place. But by using a kalk stirrer I am able to dose kalk consistently and make up my evap amount for the hottest and most humid days of the year. a "ATO" takes care of the remaining evap. I certainly would not be able to use my dosing as my ato

 

[Bunnee911]

My evaporation is less than 3 gallons give or take . Less than 1% of my totally water volume. Ever if my change in evaporated water changes over the year by 20% (in reality it's no where near that) then that's only about .6 gallon or so. So after a whole week if I made no adjustments for the whole year that's 1.2 gallons a week difference. Not enough to cause a problem. However seasons change gradually so 20% change is going to happen slowly.

Ha ha. Not in Texas!

 

[Reefing-Around]

Not dosing anything into my nano but in the process of building a 150 mixed and have been doing some reading. My plan was to run a kalk ATO and in addition to standard precautions, was going to set a max run time for the ATO pump in an Apex. Was hoping this will help prevent any over doses..

 

[Digh0621]

What size is your tank? By your calculation it appears you are dosing 9,600 ml (325 ounces or 2.5 gallons ) of saturated Kalk per 24 hour period. Living in California my tank evaporation changes between the seasons. Our AC dries the house out and I can use a gallon a day in the summer but only about 3/4 gallon during the winter. Calculation and adjusting will need to work. I use the Micro ATO autoaqua. Unfortunately my Dozer is and my ATo reservoir are in separate rooms and I cannot bring them together (wife wont let me so I keep the front room nice. LOL) its about 3 foot on the other side of a wall that I have drilled through though.

I think every single person is doing Kalk wrong!!!!

Why not add Kalk just like every other additive. Calculate the amount needed in a 24 hour period and dose that much exactly, based on evaporation NOT ALK/Cal consumption.

My Kalk system is simple:

Container: 32g Brute
Pump: BRS 50ml/min ATO pump/doser
Timer/Control: APEX

My pump comes on 4 min every 1/2 hour, this amount matches my evaporation rate. That rate and dose has not changed in the 1+ year I have been doing it.

Never had an over dose. Never spiked pH, never flooded the sump. Only issues that you hVe to deal with is refilling the container. If everyone did Kalk like this everyone would be doing Kalk. There is no reason not too. Include it with any system to help stabilize pH and ALK. Maintains Cal. Will NOT increase salinity. Will not cause an imbalance of ions. Is also your ATO.

If your system is small find a slower pump for better fine tuning.

Do Not Use Switches for control, ONLY alerts!

You already should have an idea of the evaporation rate, use that as a starting point. Adjust the timing as needed. Once set the evaporation rate may change a little with the seasons but no enough to cause danger, just adjust.

A pump that can be calibrated is great for tuning.

Must not allow a siphon!

Must be consistent, so regular pumps are out unless you can assure that it will add exactly the same amount every time. Aqualifters will not work for this setup, they are never consistent enough.

 

[ReefBeta]

What you talking about 2 part not increasing PH? The alk part will raise ph the same way limewater will. The only way to avoid ph spike is to dose them slowly. I use BRS 1.1ml doser for limewater and ph is no obvious spike. I recently switching to 2 parts, using Jeobao DP-4, which dose 20+ times faster, and ph spike whenever it doses.

I move away from limewater because it's too much work, I need to prepare 6 gallons of it every week. For 2 parts, 1 gallon solution each will last me about 3 months.

 

[cracker]

About 3 months ago I started dosing kalkwasser via the ato. However the evap rate isn't enough to keep up with Alk & Ca demands. I want to try the vinegar before going to some type of doser. I want to try the vinegar 1st because there isn't much room left. When I start this ,what do I need to look out for? Meaning Ph spike etc. Thanks !

Ps Cory , Thanks for starting this.

 

[Mindi]

I use Randy recipe 1 two part with the heated bicarb...could not be happier. Very easy to dose ...I only need to deliver around 40mls a day of each into 500 litres and the alk and calcium parts stay in balance at 3.4 meq/l and 425 ppm. I do struggle to get my pH above 8.0, it typically does 7.9 overnight and 8.0 by afternoon. I know limewater is good for some people but my attempts with it were poor. I wouldnt consider changing from the RHF recipe 1 two part. A standard 3.0l milk container lasts me about two months before I need to make any more. Must say that this has really only become very well controlled since I finally got a decent dosing pump. ( Coral Box wifi)

 

[Cory]

Two part with sodium carbonate will raise ph, two part with sodium bicarbonate will slightly lower ph. Limewater will substantially raise ph.

So whats safer in the event of overdose?

 

[ou12004]

I use 45ml of vinager per teaspoon of Kalk and my ph stays around 7.9 to 8.1 at peak. I noticed my ph was at 8.5 the other day and realized I only used 15ml of vinager per teaspoon and about 4 gallons had toped off in a 100 gallon tank. I lost 2 SPS frags that I was trying to rescue but everything else was ok.

 

[bif24701]

What size is your tank? By your calculation it appears you are dosing 9,600 ml (325 ounces or 2.5 gallons ) of saturated Kalk per 24 hour period. Living in California my tank evaporation changes between the seasons. Our AC dries the house out and I can use a gallon a day in the summer but only about 3/4 gallon during the winter. Calculation and adjusting will need to work. I use the Micro ATO autoaqua. Unfortunately my Dozer is and my ATo reservoir are in separate rooms and I cannot bring them together (wife wont let me so I keep the front room nice. LOL) its about 3 foot on the other side of a wall that I have drilled through though.

My system water volume is about ~285, yes it is full saturated Kalk. I estimate its about 2-2.5 gallons a day.

So your talking only a 1/4 gallon difference per day over a year right? Well even if the change occurred suddenly and stayed that way before you had a chance to make an adjustment it would still take a few weeks to throw off any levels to a significant value.

 

[bif24701]

Two part with sodium carbonate will raise ph, two part with sodium bicarbonate will slightly lower ph. Limewater will substantially raise ph.

So whats safer in the event of overdose?

Depends on how quickly they are dosed. Either of the two part will quickly raise ALK even when added slowly. Kalk will raise pH but that could take many hours depending on how fast your pump is set to dose.

 

[Cory]

Depends on how quickly they are dosed. Either of the two part will quickly raise ALK even when added slowly. Kalk will raise pH but that could take many hours depending on how fast your pump is set to dose.

Would the ph be more damaging than increasing alkalinity? Ive been wondering this but haven't seen any data.

 

[Val Shebeko]

Ok, i have to ask.
Currently dosing kalc the Redsea stuff that has mg and strotium a mic of 5 teaspoon per five gal. Not all disolves. When i need more i add 5 more gal abd five more teaspoons stir it , leave it overnight, pour off everything the solution and...
Tank holds 125 gal but after rocks and deep sand bed figure about a 100 .
Currently dosing 1800 ml per 24 hours with Apex Dos pump.
As of this pm.
Salinity is 1.0252
Ph 8.11
Alk. 8.74 dKH. Adding 4 mil of Redsea two part with Apex DOS
Mg 1260 addig 25 mil / 24 hours with Apex DOS
Ca. 440 adding 1 mil / 24. With Apex DOS
Plus the 1800mil of Kalc as above
The above values hardly change from day to day. The Ph is supported with fresh air and diffusers . The skimmer is also on fresh air. Air feeds through co2 absorbing granules. Ph swings with day and night. 8.05 - 8.13.
Heres my question, inwould like to move Alk, Ca Ph Mg higher but it does nor seem to want to move. A I being foolish or is there a way of moving up ?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
V
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[Cory]

Ok, i have to ask.
Currently dosing kalc the Redsea stuff that has mg and strotium a mic of 5 teaspoon per five gal. Not all disolves. When i need more i add 5 more gal abd five more teaspoons stir it , leave it overnight, pour off everything the solution and...
Tank holds 125 gal but after rocks and deep sand bed figure about a 100 .
Currently dosing 1800 ml per 24 hours with Apex Dos pump.
As of this pm.
Salinity is 1.0252
Ph 8.11
Alk. 8.74 dKH. Adding 4 mil of Redsea two part with Apex DOS
Mg 1260 addig 25 mil / 24 hours with Apex DOS
Ca. 440 adding 1 mil / 24. With Apex DOS
Plus the 1800mil of Kalc as above
The above values hardly change from day to day. The Ph is supported with fresh air and diffusers . The skimmer is also on fresh air. Air feeds through co2 absorbing granules. Ph swings with day and night. 8.05 - 8.13.
Heres my question, inwould like to move Alk, Ca Ph Mg higher but it does nor seem to want to move. A I being foolish or is there a way of moving up ?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
V
Get Outlook for iOS

You will have to raise it via baking soda/calcium chlrodie and magnesium chloride/sulphate. If you use limewater to boost it alk gets too high compared to calcium iirc.

 

[jason2459]

Ok, i have to ask.
Currently dosing kalc the Redsea stuff that has mg and strotium a mic of 5 teaspoon per five gal. Not all disolves. When i need more i add 5 more gal abd five more teaspoons stir it , leave it overnight, pour off everything the solution and...
Tank holds 125 gal but after rocks and deep sand bed figure about a 100 .
Currently dosing 1800 ml per 24 hours with Apex Dos pump.
As of this pm.
Salinity is 1.0252
Ph 8.11
Alk. 8.74 dKH. Adding 4 mil of Redsea two part with Apex DOS
Mg 1260 addig 25 mil / 24 hours with Apex DOS
Ca. 440 adding 1 mil / 24. With Apex DOS
Plus the 1800mil of Kalc as above
The above values hardly change from day to day. The Ph is supported with fresh air and diffusers . The skimmer is also on fresh air. Air feeds through co2 absorbing granules. Ph swings with day and night. 8.05 - 8.13.
Heres my question, inwould like to move Alk, Ca Ph Mg higher but it does nor seem to want to move. A I being foolish or is there a way of moving up ?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
V
Get Outlook for iOS

Raise your salinity up to 1.0264 which is about a S=35. Doing so will raise all your levels minus your pH. pH will have more to do with the CO2 in the surrounding areas of your tank and what your skimmer (if you have one) pulls in. Alkalinity will work as a buffer to help reduce pH swings and help keep them higher potentially but certainly not always as is the case with my tank.

But FWIW, I believe all your values are perfectly fine and your pH swings are minimal already. I wouldn't change anything you're doing except add a tiny bit more Mg to bring it up over 1275 mg/L. I like to be around 1300's.

Also, quick question on clarification as it may just be a lost in translation thing but when you say "dosing kalc the Redsea stuff that has mg and strontium' you don't mean that the kalk has Mg in it do you? If so then you need to look at dosing Mg separate from the kalk. Mg will precipitate out of solution in limewater.

 

[jason2459]

You will have to raise it via baking soda/calcium chlrodie and magnesium chloride/sulphate. If you use limewater to boost it alk gets too high compared to calcium iirc.

Over time you may find Ca increases dosing limewater.

 

[jason2459]

This is an excellent read for anyone looking into dosing limewater

What Your Grandmother Never
Told You About Lime By Randy Holmes-Farley
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php