Live ocean rock, or not

[dferrant]

If I had the extra money / didn't care getting scammed id buy some "live rock" and run cytology to prove it, someone wants this experiment done send me some supplies ^,^ , id wager, that you will have a more robust cycle with dry rock and coralline spores, pure nitrosomonas a copepod and bush style macroalgae

, I think people run into mistakes in other places and end up thinking its the rock /cycle of the tank or failing to forget that what goes in has to come out or perish , that rock aint the reason you overdosed beneficial bacteria , alot died, and now your phosphates 2.0 :D (just an example) -- alot of time people think the rocks are leeching phosphate but its not that at all, youre adding way too much bacteria and when it dies its converting straight into organic phosphate.

As a side note, ill actually take and drop some rocks in the local ocean this coming spring/summer and cycle some dry rock myself to run this test :D -- sad truth is the current state of all reefs around the worlds ***** grim, where are they pulling healthy reef from arent we at like 80% mortality in past 10 years?

The arrogance and the hubris I just have to respond. You are going to run cytology ? Fancy Jargon. And what exactly are you going to do and how are you going to conduct the “cytology” experiment ? What exactly will you prove, what is the actual hypothesis you plan to “prove it “? After all, it’s just science, right ? Are you going to swab two different rocks and count bacteria under a microscope? Or perhaps you would use flow cytometry? But of course as you know, that only shows cell type and size, scattering etc so you would need to couple it with some type of genetic sequencing technology. So do you plan to use a technique similar to environmental DNA, in which you would use PCR to look for and identify and then amplify the identifying genetic sequence fragments of certain bacteria ? Which Bacteria ? How do you know which bacteria you will be looking at ? Are you going to look for just nitrosomonas ? How would you even identify if you are looking at nitrosomonas? Do you have access to commercially available PCR primers that could amplify a nitrosomonas sequence, or would you have to synthesize them yourself ? Or maybe you plan to use something like proteomics or identification of certain mRNAs or proteins specific to the bacteria in question ? In which case I assume you have access to advanced liquid chromatography mass spectrometry systems with data processing software that require phd level training and experience to operate and interpret the data ? Suppose you somehow are able to accomplish one of these and suppose you somehow establish a quantitative correlation between, let’s say, abundance of nitrosomonas spp. on dry cycled rock vs wild ocean rock. Do you think that actually proves anything ? Where did you obtain the sample ? From the surface of the rock? Or would you drill into the rock and take samples from the interior ? How would you ensure that signals you are somehow measuring are from the bacteria on the rock and not contamination from the surrounding environment ? Do you honestly think that just the presence or even relative abundance of nitrosomonas spp, a single species, is the sole contributor to biological stability ? There are probably millions of species present on live rock. In fact I know so. If you were to sample and then shotgun PCR amplify the extract or a sample from actual live rock, the number of hits you would get against a database would be off the charts. My bet is if you used a sequencing technology of some sort on the ocean live rock, and ran it through a database of known microbial sequences such as a basic local alignment search tool, you would likely even find some that probably have no known match or alignment.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

 

[Subsea]

I did not see rude or uneducated.. I can identitify with his comments on mask when I saw people driving alone in a car with their mask on. Go figure.

what a remarkably rude and uneducated response. Want to point me to the source that masks do nothing? Or is this your opinion based on politics? Wait, don’t answer the second part because i really don’t care.

Go ahead and prove to me that masks don’t at least reduce droplet transmission of infectious disease (though obviously not perfect). This is why in my hospital, for example, surgeons are required to mask up in the OR and infusion nurses are required to mask up around immunocompromised patients.

Grow up with your snarky responses.

PS: Hospitals are notorious infectious disease zones. Wear all protective devices available.i

 

[Tonycass12]

what a remarkably rude and uneducated response. Want to point me to the source that masks do nothing? Or is this your opinion based on politics? Wait, don’t answer the second part because i really don’t care.

Go ahead and prove to me that masks don’t at least reduce droplet transmission of infectious disease (though obviously not perfect). This is why in my hospital, for example, surgeons are required to mask up in the OR and infusion nurses are required to mask up around immunocompromised patients.

Grow up with your snarky responses.

Ok guys this is getting off topic to the point that mods will need to step in if it continues like many threads before this one. Let's keep it focused on the subject at hand live rock vs dead rock.

 

[Tonycass12]

Reminder* were here for civil discussions about the reefing hobby. Disagreement is fine but when folks start to go at one another or politics get dragged into it these threads dissappear or end up with a bunch of missing replies. I think it's good to keep these threads going so that others, especially new folks to the hobby can see all the arguments laid out and get to their own conclusions about what route may be best for them.

Were all here for the same thing, we love this hobby.

 

[dferrant]

Ok guys this is getting off topic to the point that mods will need to step in if it continues like many threads before this one. Let's keep it focused on the subject at hand live rock vs dead rock.

I agree Tony. But there is a larger point to what I am saying and what those who are agreeing with me recognize. Everybody thinks they are an expert and some kind of authority based on basically nothing and they gas light us into questioning what we know to be true based on what is right in front of us that we see with our own eyes… even the guy that that just posted and erased his comment, talking about “ his hospital”, just the hubris I can’t take anymore not just in this hobby. Guy is probably a technician at a local hospital but somehow that gives him more authority on an aquarium website. “ his hospital” like 0.5 % chance it is “ his hospital “ and he is running the hospital. Everybody is an expert.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

Reminder* were here for civil discussions about the reefing hobby. Disagreement is fine but when folks start to go at one another or politics get dragged into it these threads dissappear or end up with a bunch of missing replies. I think it's good to keep these threads going so that others, especially new folks to the hobby can see all the arguments laid out and get to their own conclusions about what route may be best for them.

Were all here for the same thing, we love this hobby.

apologies- Agree 100%.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

I wasn’t going to take the bait but I will. The microbiological diversity comes from pores deep within the rock. BRS which is not even that scientific did this experiment, even with the dry mined rock it loses a different amount of water when drying so it’s porosity is different .Just because you are probably a lab technician that swabbed the surface of a rock and looked at it under a microscope doesn’t prove anything. An 8 th grade level exercise with middle school level logic. Then claim to know science and be a representative for the bastion of science. You are probably the type that wore two masks and stayed exactly 6 feet apart at the grocery store even though all these things were proven by “science” to do absolutely nothing. But hey, you believe in science, right?
I’ll tell everybody on here how you spot an actual scientist: we admit that we don’t always know. That there is a lot to be learned. That most things we are still figuring out. I spent eight years of my life studying to be a scientist in graduate school. It is very irritating to have to endure people making claims on behalf of “science.”

tell us more… please. Trying so hard to be heard.

 

[Jamie9]

I thought the orange was a type of sponge but am not really sure. It's another life form that made it's way in at some point. The scrubber is pretty awesome. It's a Santa Monica surf 4. It takes up very little space and was the only ATS I could find that didn't have a lot of light spill which was a requirement because having a cryptic area was part of the original plan. It also provides a nice supply of food for my tangs.

Yeah, I was perfectly happy with my AIO, which was the largest tank I could get the wife to approve…until I saw your sump/cryptic. Now I will forever be scheming up a way to get myself a larger tank with an equally large sump so I can try to reproduce it!

 

[Tonycass12]

I agree Tony. But there is a larger point to what I am saying and what those who are agreeing with me recognize. Everybody thinks they are an expert and some kind of authority based on basically nothing and they gas light us into questioning what we know to be true based on what is right in front of us that we see with our own eyes… even the guy that that just posted and erased his comment, talking about “ his hospital”, just the hubris I can’t take anymore not just in this hobby. Guy is probably a technician at a local hospital but somehow that gives him more authority on an aquarium website. “ his hospital” like 0.5 % chance it is “ his hospital “ and he is running the hospital. Everybody is an expert.

Again your going from our discussion to a personal attack. If you disagree thats fine but if you can't be civil about it in your reply and keep it on subject please just move on. I dont agree with more than a few comments that have been made but they arent related to the subject at hand so I will choose to ignore them. Were already veering way off by continuing the back amd forth so this will be the last I say on it.

 

[Subsea]

tell us more… please. Trying so hard to be heard.

Chris,
Which do you want more: tell us more or trying hard to be heard?
I heard you earlier. What did I miss?

 

[dferrant]

Again your going from our discussion to a personal attack. If you disagree thats fine but if you can't be civil about it in your reply and keep it on subject please just move on. I dont agree with more than a few comments that have been made but they arent related to the subject at hand so I will choose to ignore them. Were already veering way off by continuing the back amd forth so this will be the last I say on it.

Tony
It is not a personal attack. There is a large lesson to be leaned here that is important for people, especially people new to the hobby . It is directly relevant to hobby success .

Consider the source and the reliability of the information you are using. Anyone can make claims on the internet, but you will find, most are based on nothing or just regurgitation of other pseudo information somebody else said somewhere with no actual basis for the claims. Experience counts. It is probably better to take advice from people with decades of experience in the hobby. Scientific claims are probably more reliable if they are coming from or evaluated by actual scientists. It is a very simple philosophy - to question information before taking an action based upon it . Consider the credentials of the person providing the information before taking action based on said information. In this context, it is probably demonstrated success in the hobby over a prolonged experience timeframe.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

Chris,
Which do you want more: tell us more or trying hard to be heard?
I heard you earlier. What did I miss?

Not really sure what you are referring to. Tony stepped in and reminded “us all” that this is a reefing site and to keep it on topic and anove the belt which I respect. I self audited and deleted my response out of respect for the forum.

Happy new year brother….

 

[Fish Fan]

live is great, but there is a luck factor that you dont end with nasty hitch hickers/disease

The ladies at Tampa Bay Saltwater had their holding tanks eDNA tested, and did not find any disease causing organisms present:
Post in thread 'Disease Free Live Rock?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/disease-free-live-rock.1111016/post-13569608
Post in thread 'TBS Live Rock and Sand Disease Risk'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tbs-live-rock-and-sand-disease-risk.1094726/post-13269252

That being the case, if, like me, you’re concerned with potential diseases from the live rock, simply run the rock without fish for 45-60 days, and any parasites will die off in this time without a fish to complete their lifecycle.

 

[Tonycass12]

The ladies at Tampa Bay Saltwater had their holding tanks eDNA tested, and did not find any disease causing organisms present:
Post in thread 'Disease Free Live Rock?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/disease-free-live-rock.1111016/post-13569608
Post in thread 'TBS Live Rock and Sand Disease Risk'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tbs-live-rock-and-sand-disease-risk.1094726/post-13269252

That being the case, if, like me, you’re concerned with potential diseases from the live rock, simply run the rock without fish for 45-60 days, and any parasites will die off in this time without a fish to complete their lifecycle.

I get the new folks being concerned about the "pests" but when it comes down to it things like aptasia or vermatids are something you will more than likely eventually get when adding corals or inverts. Its just part of the hobby. I do like your reminder though that going fishless with rocks for a while will at least guarantee that you won't get any of the worrysome things that could potentially impact your fish. Im a big fan of letting your rock cook for a while with lights out in a new system.

 

[Fish Fan]

also- don’t underestimate live sand as well.

Good point! But I would add that we shouldn't confuse real live sand from, for example, Tampa Bay Saltwater with the CaribSea "live" sands-in-a-bag. I consider the bagged stuff to be more or less dry sand with bottled bacteria

 

[dferrant]

I get the new folks being concerned about the "pests" but when it comes down to it things like aptasia or vermatids are something you will more than likely eventually get when adding corals or inverts. Its just part of the hobby. I do like your reminder though that going fishless with rocks for a while will at least guarantee that you won't get any of the worrysome things that could potentially impact your fish. Im a big fan of letting your rock cook for a while with lights out in a new system.

I couldn’t agree more with this information.
As you can all see, I am strongly in support of live rock. In the spirit of continuing a positive discussion based on actual information, I’ll even share two events that could show some of the risks related to live rock and live sand.

One time, to the tank pictured in my post, I decided to add additional live rock to the display after the tank was established. it was in a state close to how it is pictured in that photo. Another time, I decided to add additional live sand to the display, and some of it wound up covering over some of the existing live sand. In both cases, bleaching events were observed throughout that tank. Whether that was a result of introducing new pathogens, die off from the transit and putting the rock directly into the display and destabilizing, or just additional biomass that “smothered out “ some of the existing stability is unknown. But interesting and informative examples to keep in mind.

 

[CHSUB]

I get the new folks being concerned about the "pests" but when it comes down to it things like aptasia or vermatids are something you will more than likely eventually get when adding corals or inverts. Its just part of the hobby. I do like your reminder though that going fishless with rocks for a while will at least guarantee that you won't get any of the worrysome things that could potentially impact your fish. Im a big fan of letting your rock cook for a while with lights out in a new system.

Yes. Having two aquariums that started independently, one with Tampa Bay Live and one with dead rock, both had issues with pests however different pests. Live rock had crabs, deadly worms and mantis shrimp, a stone crab destroyed a $440 scoly coral before I caught her. Dead rock tank got aptasia, vermatids and pumpkin flat worms. The flat worms are proving to be the most difficult however proper qt could have prevented their introduction. Interestingly, I had more of a problem with nuisance algae including dinos in the live rock tank.

I will reaffirm, “it’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian”….an experience, knowledgeable hobbyist can be successful with either approach.

 

[ReefGeezer]

For what it's worth... when I start a new tank, I will use live rock. Specifically, live base rock, live rubble rock, and live sand... all cultured in the ocean. I'm still working on how I'll establish it in the tank and how I will aquascape it.

My goal will be to establish a diverse environment that has no room (or much less) for Mother Nature to introduce pesky bacterial and algae, and to start the food web. The diversity I worry about really isn't bacterial. It will be present. It is the pods, coralline, biofilms, sponges, tube worms, and etc. that come on the rock that I think is important. Some of this life helps process nutrients, some keeps pesky algae/bacteria from getting a good footing, and some provides the food.

I won't pretend that there won't be challenges. Among others, pests are a concern and aquascape is more difficult. And it ain't cheap! However, I do think it is better than fighting the uglies for two years.

 

[BoaConservationist]

I agree Tony. But there is a larger point to what I am saying and what those who are agreeing with me recognize. Everybody thinks they are an expert and some kind of authority based on basically nothing and they gas light us into questioning what we know to be true based on what is right in front of us that we see with our own eyes… even the guy that that just posted and erased his comment, talking about “ his hospital”, just the hubris I can’t take anymore not just in this hobby. Guy is probably a technician at a local hospital but somehow that gives him more authority on an aquarium website. “ his hospital” like 0.5 % chance it is “ his hospital “ and he is running the hospital. Everybody is an expert.

it got removed for profanity even though it was starred out , someone reported it , threads comical, dont worry you can be actually useful by showing me nuances i can answer before the experiments underway, https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...n-2025-given-what-we-can-now-culture.1141981/