Major Sump water level issues for 2 years

[Dan_P]

If this idea has been offered already, my apologies.

Theoretically, if you add water to the sump, only the sump level should increase. Observing the display tank level increase and sump level decrease means the pump velocity changed. I am not following the idea that the return flow from the display becomes choked. How high does a water addition raise the sump level? Can you reproduce this effect by you adding water manually instead of than the ATO system? You would have to determine the level that triggers the ATO and then you add the water at the same rate as the ATO.

 

[Keithb22]

So probably irrelevant at this point but the 100micron filter sock is a polishing sock go to a 200-300 mesh or felt and change those out every 2-3 days instead of waiting for them to get clogged. This might be key in more areas than just flow.

 

[Snoopy 67]

For now just close the valve to the canister filter.
Water levels will ONLY change in the sump because you are pumping water constantly to the tank.

 

[Eggpaul]

Update-
I closed the Main valve to the canister last night at 9 pm , even thought smaller ball valve closer to the canister has been off for a week.
A little later I added 8 cups of RO water to the sump to reach a mark I had made. 15 minutes later the water had lowered 1/4 of an inch and the DT rose with the overflow. It stayed that way all night. This morning DT is still the same level. Sump level is down a total of 1 inch, I'm assuming with evaporation. I'll see what happens tonight.

 

[Snoopy 67]

Keep watching & add ONCE A Day for evaporation, noting what you add.
It might vary slightly with humidity but not much. If you think it still fluctuates watch the overflow box for height level changes too. Common with a "Herbie" style.

 

[Eggpaul]

Keep watching & add ONCE A Day for evaporation, noting what you add.
It might vary slightly with humidity but not much. If you think it still fluctuates watch the overflow box for height level changes too. Common with a "Herbie" style.

Overflow is about the same, maybe went up a fraction with DT. Right now it's 2:30pm and sump level has dropped a little from evaporation.

Pictures shows water level. I filled to top of red tape, dropped a 1/4 inch within 10 min. Now it is below, I assume from evap.

 

[homer1475]

I run a herbie. if the water in the display rises, is it near the emergency? Is the display height and overflow(tower style just like I have) right at the level of the emergency?

 

[homer1475]

if the display rises, the overflow has to as well. Your emergency height dictates the display height in a tower style herbie setup.

 

[homer1475]

You really need a gate valve on the main siphon, ball valve is no where near prices enough. I keep mine right to the height of the emergency( I like a fuller looker rimless), with a once in a while small trickle over it. I literally only turn my valve like a 1/8 of a turn to make a huge difference. Again ball valve is no where near precise enough to match your return pump, even with a DC return.

You can of course keep the display lower, but that also means the tower overflow will have less water also.

Suppose I could have put that all in one post. Sorry thinking and typing.

 

[Eggpaul]

I run a herbie. if the water in the display rises, is it near the emergency? Is the display height and overflow(tower style just like I have) right at the level of the emergency?

Yes the display is right at the emergency. When DT rises so does overflow in center. I also like the rimless look where the water is at the top.

 

[homer1475]

Ok so when the display rises, your overflow does as well. So any extra should just be going down the emergency kepping the sump the same level?

 

[homer1475]

FWIW....

When I used to run socks, when they got clogged and overflowing, it also made the display rise, kicking on the ATO.

Less flow through the sock = more water to fill up the sock before it overflows. When you change said sock, your sump should be overfull.

 

[Plecosam]

You really need a gate valve on the main siphon, ball valve is no where near prices enough. I keep mine right to the height of the emergency( I like a fuller looker rimless), with a once in a while small trickle over it. I literally only turn my valve like a 1/8 of a turn to make a huge difference. Again ball valve is no where near precise enough to match your return pump, even with a DC return.

You can of course keep the display lower, but that also means the tower overflow will have less water also.

Suppose I could have put that all in one post. Sorry thinking and typing.

Classic case of an oversized valve, a gate valve has better precision in your situation because you most likely have sized the valve the same as your pipework. Granted ball valves are not the best control valves but if sized correctly can do the job.

You are correct but not for the reasons you think, not meaning to be offensive but not many understand process control in this hobby.

 

[homer1475]

Classic case of an oversized valve, a gate valve has better precision in your situation because you most likely have sized the valve the same as your pipework. Granted ball valves are not the best control valves but if sized correctly can do the job.

You are correct but not for the reasons you think, not meaning to be offensive but not many understand process control in this hobby.

Then explain why. Never thought 1" piping was oversized, but I'm always up for a schooling.

 

[Eggpaul]

Ok so when the display rises, your overflow does as well. So any extra should just be going down the emergency kepping the sump the same level?

Hmm. I think my emergency pipe might be too high that it hardly gets to that point. This might be the issue. Should I cut the emergency pipe about 1/4 inch? At this point the pipe is where the euro brace is, so of the water goes any higher it flows across the euro brace and also into the pipe. I never let it get there. You think if I lower it a little then the rising water should go into the emergency and keep the sump level then?

 

[homer1475]

Does it not raise above the overflow? I guess I have maybe a 1 inch before the top of the tank.

And bingo, thats your issue. you just keep raising the display height. Your emergency shouldn't be higher then your overflow box.

 

[lapin]

ATO issue; On my tank if the socks do not get changed every 2 days the level in the sock chamber rises.
This is extra water not going thru the socks and out the bottom of the chamber. This extra tapped water causes the ATO to put more water in the sump even though it was not lost to evaporation.

If the sock chamber gets too high there is a slot it can flow thru so it wont overflow onto the floor.

Not sure about your drain pipe issue, as I have only had bean animal types

 

[homer1475]

My emergency is right at the top of my overflow. If it was any higher, water would go over the overflow and not through the weir teeth. Which I'm assuming yours does with the emergency being so high. Eventually the emergency will kick in, as long as its below the top of the tank. lol

 

[homer1475]

With a herbie setup, you set the display height by how high your emergency pipe is. The lower the pipe, it will either crash into the overflow(emergency pipe lower then weir teeth), higher the pipe the higher the display up to crashing over the overflow and not through the weir teeth.

This is why your sump keeps lowering, and the display rises. Once it equals out(from ATO addition) the sump lowers because you never have it going high enough to use the trickle of the emergency.

Hope that makes sense? I'm not the best at describing things. lol

 

[Plecosam]

Then explain why. Never thought 1" piping was oversized, but I'm always up for a schooling.

It is not the pipe that is oversized it is the control valve, think about how often your valve is 100% open in a full siphon, well it never is. Flow, pipesize, head pressure all need to be taken into account when sizing control valves.

This is why a ball valve sized the same as the pipework for a full siphon in almost all cases is too big, think of it like trying to control level/flow with a big stick as opposed to a smaller stick. Even your gate valve sized down one size would give you better precision over the 1/8th turn you have now.

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Control Valve sizing is easy especially when referenced to specific models of control valve provided by manufacturer & proper sizing of valve.

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