Melanurus Wrasse died next day in QT

[QuinnLee512]

There are a couple options:
1. Add bottled bacteria. Yes, it costs money, and you're going to go through a bunch of it doing the TTM, but that's a cost of getting the fish through QT faster than traditional QT. The bacteria you add start to help immediately, reducing ammonia levels.

2. Keep a bunch of bio-media in your DT and transfer smaller bags of it to each clean tank with the fish. They would need to be thoroughly sanitized and re-seeded with bacteria in the DT after each step of the TTM.

3. Monitor ammonia levels religiously, keep freshly made saltwater on hand, and do water changes to reduce ammonia as soon as see levels start to rise. This means using a more accurate tester than API or ammonia badges, because levels can rise quickly in a small tank.

Hmm okay. I have both Dr Tim's and Bio Spira. I thought using it would be worthless since I thought it wouldn't have any time to work since I have to move the fish out on the 4th day. I actually have a sponge in my sump from when I only knew about quarantining the usual way. Then I found out about TTM. I have a Biocube 32 so I really only have room for 1 sponge.

 

[MaxTremors]

@ninjamyst

no, the other thread is saying that anyone who recommends skipping quarantine only has their own tank to show for it, and that we can't verify they're not lying (killing and just re buying new fish) unless they build and run a fish disease forum using their way getting live entrants to track for ability, using their honest feedback.

we said in the other thread that qt saves more fish than it kills, that's using proofs from the fish disease thread using other people's feedback.

But couldn’t the people in these threads also be lying? I mean, you can’t say one side is untrustworthy and the other isn’t when both are unverifiable, just as easily falsifiable, and self-reported over the internet. The entire fish disease forum, as helpful as it is, is still just anecdotes and speculation. From diagnosis to treatment to the lack of follow-up, none of it holds any scientific weight.

That’s not to say it’s not helpful, anecdotal data can be very useful, but acting like it’s some repository of scientific data, and that any other users who report success not QTing are untrustworthy and even if they aren’t lying it’s anecdotal (when the entire disease forum is comprised solely of anecdotes), is absurd. Just because someone hasn’t started a forum for people who don’t QT doesn’t mean there aren’t tons of people who have success, I mean the entire hobby existed for decades without QTing being a common process amongst hobbyists.

Again, I think the fish disease forum is an incredibly useful resource, and I generally recommend to QT when possible. But it’s not a consensus, it’s not settled science, and discounting dissenting opinions as either untrustworthy or anecdotal when those same concerns apply just as easily to the disease forum is problematic (devaluing opinions or accounts because they don’t comport with your thesis is troubling, especially when you accept accounts or opinions that support your thesis that have the same reliability/falsifiability concerns and are just as anecdotal as you claim those that don’t are).

 

[Miami Reef]

There are a couple options:
1. Add bottled bacteria. Yes, it costs money, and you're going to go through a bunch of it doing the TTM, but that's a cost of getting the fish through QT faster than traditional QT. The bacteria you add start to help immediately, reducing ammonia levels.

2. Keep a bunch of bio-media in your DT and transfer smaller bags of it to each clean tank with the fish. They would need to be thoroughly sanitized and re-seeded with bacteria in the DT after each step of the TTM.

3. Monitor ammonia levels religiously, keep freshly made saltwater on hand, and do water changes to reduce ammonia as soon as see levels start to rise. This means using a more accurate tester than API or ammonia badges, because levels can rise quickly in a small tank.

Why can’t you just use prime? If you dose it every 24 hours you’ll have ammonia always under control.

It’s very unlikely a new bottle of bacteria will immediate handle a bioload of ammonia. It takes time. Plus bacteria needs surface area to work. The whole point of TTM is a simple setup to make it easy to sterilize every 72 hours.

If you are going through the struggle to cycle a tank with TTM, you might as well use the standard quarantine method.

OP: I’m seeing a lot of misinformation in this thread. Having to cycle a tank for TTM?

Do yourself a favor and get all your source from 1 place. Someone who actually studies ich/parasites and came up with HTTM: Humblefish is his name. https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.1765/

 

[Miami Reef]

Humblefish even made a video explaining the same thing in that article:

 

[QuinnLee512]

Why can’t you just use prime? If you dose it every 24 hours you’ll have ammonia always under control.

It’s very unlikely a new bottle of bacteria will immediate handle a bioload of ammonia. It takes time. Plus bacteria needs surface area to work. The whole point of TTM is a simple setup to make it easy to sterilize every 72 hours.

If you are going through the struggle to cycle a tank with TTM, you might as well use the standard quarantine method.

OP: I’m seeing a lot of misinformation in this thread. Having to cycle a tank for TTM?

Do yourself a favor and get all your source from 1 place. Someone who actually studies ich/parasites and came up with HTTM: Humblefish is his name. https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.1765/

Yes that is what I'm following. I'm seeing no mention of cycling a tank. Plus I think it's almost impossible to do. I have prime on hand just in case.

 

[brandon429]

MaxT

if you read the fish disease forum that conclusion can’t be drawn. Post a place you think does more frequent live time work with feedback


a fine stand in for the links in the fish disease forum is anything by Humblefish

guess what methods he uses… even stricter qt and fallow and medication preps
These are people who advise others and then those others post updates months later
And years in some cases with better pattern than non quarantiners. I see disease emergence as a large factor when checking back on cycles completed.


it only appears those two dont have the best methods if we are sitting at home, looking at our own reefs. When advising others such as those examples show, anything shy of what they do proves to be fatal for the masses about eight months after setup. Most posts in the fish disease forum here are from tanks under eight months old, and I don’t ever get alternate sources of active work to compare with


alternate to the five hundred jobs on file in the fish forum where we can send entrants a checkup message, we get some person who owns one reef at home saying skipping quarantine works for them. That method cannot run a zoo, Jays method runs zoos.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Hmm okay. I have both Dr Tim's and Bio Spira. I thought using it would be worthless since I thought it wouldn't have any time to work since I have to move the fish out on the 4th day. I actually have a sponge in my sump from when I only knew about quarantining the usual way. Then I found out about TTM. I have a Biocube 32 so I really only have room for 1 sponge.

I used bio spira in my qt tank, along with a bit of bio filtration. I added my bio spira after I added the clowns. Ammonia never rose up. Never did I have to ‘cycle the tank’ , I let the fish do it for me .

 

[adittam]

Why can’t you just use prime? If you dose it every 24 hours you’ll have ammonia always under control.

It’s very unlikely a new bottle of bacteria will immediate handle a bioload of ammonia. It takes time. Plus bacteria needs surface area to work. The whole point of TTM is a simple setup to make it easy to sterilize every 72 hours.

If you are going through the struggle to cycle a tank with TTM, you might as well use the standard quarantine method.

OP: I’m seeing a lot of misinformation in this thread. Having to cycle a tank for TTM?

Do yourself a favor and get all your source from 1 place. Someone who actually studies ich/parasites and came up with HTTM: Humblefish is his name. https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.1765/

It's not that you CAN'T. It's just not best practice for several reasons.

As I stated earlier in this thread, if you read the following thread in its entirety, paying special attention to Jay Hemdal's responses, you'll see why.

No Cycle Method

Hey Everyone.. Is there anyway one can add fish to a 15 gallon, Freshly Setup, QT tank on Day 1 without the need for cycling the tank using products like Amquel and Seachem Prime? What would the protocol for water changes be if using the above method? TIA

www.reef2reef.com

 

[adittam]

Yes that is what I'm following. I'm seeing no mention of cycling a tank. Plus I think it's almost impossible to do. I have prime on hand just in case.

You don't need to cycle the tank. See my previous response with the 3 options for lowering ammonia that are better than using Prime as a standard practice.

 

[Miami Reef]

It's not that you CAN'T. It's just not best practice for several reasons.

As I stated earlier in this thread, if you read the following thread in its entirety, paying special attention to Jay Hemdal's responses, you'll see why.

No Cycle Method

Hey Everyone.. Is there anyway one can add fish to a 15 gallon, Freshly Setup, QT tank on Day 1 without the need for cycling the tank using products like Amquel and Seachem Prime? What would the protocol for water changes be if using the above method? TIA

www.reef2reef.com

This doesn't apply to OP because he is using tank transfer method. It's not like Op is going to rely on prime for 30 days. He's switching out tanks every 2-3 days. Plus there's no medications in the water. Just prime.

 

[adittam]

This doesn't apply to OP because he is using tank transfer method. It's not like Op is going to rely on prime for 30 days. He's switching out tanks every 2-3 days. Plus there's no medications in the water. Just prime.

What does it matter if the OP is adding Prime or Stability to the tank? If you need to add something to the tank to deal with ammonia, why add daily Stability that will actually process the ammonia? That way you can still test for it or use an ammonia badge so you know what you're actually dealing with instead of guessing.

@Humblefish how do you deal with ammonia when using the TTM?

 

[Miami Reef]

What does it matter if the OP is adding Prime or Stability to the tank? If you need to add something to the tank to deal with ammonia, why add daily Stability that will actually process the ammonia? That way you can still test for it or use an ammonia badge so you know what you're actually dealing with instead of guessing.

Because stability uses bacteria spores. It takes a few weeks to get them started. Bottled bacteria is pointless in TTM because there's no surface area in the tank for bacteria to latch on to. It's also wasteful and expensive for no reason.

There is a time and place for everything. Since TTM uses uncycled sterile tanks, we need a quick ammonia reduction. I overdosed 2 different brands of live bacteria and my tank is STILL not cycled yet. It's been 1.5 weeks. I'm relying on water changes and prime until the bacteria can catch up...and I have both rocks and sand in this QT! The brands I used were biospira and fritz turbostart 900.

I love bottled bacteria. Just not for TTM. Ammonia kills fast. The number one killer in new tanks. Prime will neutralize all ammonia for 24 hours. Why do I like prime? It's reliable!

 

[brandon429]

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

Miami
If those guys can be sold that prime is working that will mean something

 

[QuinnLee512]

So I think the question here is how to deal with ammonia during TTM. Hopefully Humblefish will chime in.

 

[Miami Reef]

So I think the question here is how to deal with ammonia during TTM. Hopefully Humblefish will chime in.

Seems the best way is to understock, underfeed, and oversize TTM tanks. Based on reading @brandon429 's linked thread, I came to the conclusion that Prime isn't we were made out to believe.

Also seems like certain species have better tolerance to ammonia than others. Knowing this, I would make sure my tank is fully cycled before adding sensitive fish like certain angels, morish idols etc. Thank you Brandon for this information.

I don't think I would feel comfortable using HTTM on expert-only fish. I would prefer a seasoned QT aquarium and to use a medication. Uncycled tanks are risky in the sense that there isn't bacteria.


I think it's a matter of "is the juice worth the squeeze".

Humblefish isn't on this forum anymore, but I can message him on a different one. I'll post back on what he thinks.

 

[adittam]

Seems the best way is to understock, underfeed, and oversize TTM tanks. Based on reading @brandon429 's linked thread, I came to the conclusion that Prime isn't we were made out to believe.

Also seems like certain species have better tolerance to ammonia than others. Knowing this, I would make sure my tank is fully cycled before adding sensitive fish like certain angels, morish idols etc. Thank you Brandon for this information.

I don't think I would feel comfortable using HTTM on expert-only fish. I would prefer a seasoned aquarium.

Yep.

Also, a daily dosed bacteria like Seachem Stability can't hurt and doesn't cost anywhere close to as much as a full bottle of Dr. Tim's. You can also use it with a filter sponge in a HOB filter (to give the bacteria more surface area) that you remove and sanitize after each tank transfer.

 

[brandon429]

Let the record reflect: two months ago if someone told me prime didn’t have a mechanism against ammonia I’d never ever believe them ever it would take Dan and T and their chemistry works to sell me as they’ve done

 

[Miami Reef]

Yep.

Also, a daily dosed bacteria like Seachem Stability can't hurt and doesn't cost anywhere close to as much as a full bottle of Dr. Tim's. You can also use it with a filter sponge in a HOB filter (to give the bacteria more surface area) that you remove and sanitize after each tank transfer.

That's a great idea! You can keep a lot of pieces of sponge in your DT (If you're sure there aren't parasites in it). Preferably for a month+ and then use a new one in each transfer. You'd sterilize the sponge after each transfer because any parasites on fish would infect the sponge. You don't want that sponge in any tank with fish in it.

To reiterate: overfeeding and overstocking a TTM tank will work against you.

I'm not trying to persuade you from TTM. I just want to know: what's your reason for using TTM instead for a standard QT procedure?

 

[QuinnLee512]

That's a great idea! You can keep a lot of pieces of sponge in your DT (If you're sure there aren't parasites in it). Preferably for a month+ and then use a new one in each transfer. You'd sterilize the sponge after each transfer because any parasites on fish would infect the sponge. You don't want that sponge in any tank with fish in it.

To reiterate: overfeeding and overstocking a TTM tank will work against you.

I'm not trying to persuade you from TTM. I just want to know: what's your reason for using TTM instead for a standard QT procedure?

But what if you don't have a DT big enough for all those sponges? I'm just trying to not have to maintain 3 tanks for 76 days plus. I have my DT, coral/invert QT, and of course fish. I'm surprised this topic hasn't been discussed here. There were 2 people in my quarantine thread that said they use TTM. I'll ask them what they do.