Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sarcastic in a sense but serious....i don't use any of those things mentioned and yes my tank is flourishing. ..but i was replying to the comments on "EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE" .....I've proven without documentation that not using ANY of these things that my reef is successful. ...so why buy all the EXTRA if i get the same results as everyone else....same goes for micro bubbling...everyone wants documentation. .but shouldn't just looking at a successful reef that uses this method be enough ???

OK, but few experienced people think those other things are "needed" as almost no one used them for decades and they often had nice tanks. That's what was confusing me.

But on your last sentence, no, just looking at a successful reef is not enough to say whether it is successful because all the husbandry practices are beneficial, or whether it is successful despite the fact that some are neutral or even detrimental. That is so very often the case with chemical additives. People add them and have a great tank, so other folks assume they are good. That's not always true.

That said, I'm not making any comment on its utility. I can certainly see how it would act as a potentially different type of skimmer, and possibly more. If you are happy with the effects on your tank, there's certainly no reason to change. :)

 

[Thales]

I also have 30 fish in my system...and they are all fine as well....this technique is nothing new...Public Aquariums have been doing this for years...it's just now being used by home aquarist because of EC posting on fb and other areas

I have been working in public aquaria for 9 years and have never heard of any public aquarium doing this. Which ones are your referring to?

 

[Reeflogic]

Well, interesting debate. I've been in the hobby 30+ years and seen many things come and go. One thing I've observed over the years is surge tanks. Some very successful ones at that. Isn't micro-bubble scrubbing somewhat the same idea, without the actual "surge?" I realize surge systems are built to surge every 10-20 minutes, 24 hours a day, but the ones that I've seen in person filled the display with micro bubbles. Doesn't this occur on reefs, these surges?

I'm giving it a try but I'm using a small nano-skimmer pump instead of an air-pump and diffuser and only 4 hours each night. I'm less than a week in and can't really say there are any improvements or not, but it didn't cost me a dime and I certainly don't see any negative effects, as of yet. My only concern currently, based on everything I've read so far is the supersaturation that could lead to gas bubble disease.

Hopefully, more folks that are experimenting with it will start to post positive results or maybe even post some negative effects, either way, it seems to have a very positive start as of late.

 

[Thales]

The crashing waves occur on reefs but only in the surf zone. Most of the corals we keep come from well below that. :D

What is really needed is not more people trying and reporting results, but some side by side comparisons

 

[Reeflogic]

What is really needed is not more people trying and reporting results, but some side by side comparisons

Or that :)

 

[Reeflogic]

I know most corals are from deeper water, but these fish and corals appear to be doing fine in the surge.

 

[Thales]

Surges are deeper, bubbles from waves not so much.

 

[Reeflogic]

Surges are deeper, bubbles from waves not so much.

This confused me a little because I always assumed surge was an increase in water volume, such as storm surge, from hurricanes, etc. and I assumed it can also mean the force produced by a wave, creating a surge of water, such as what happened in this video, which introduced fresh o2 into the water, directly into the reef. Regardless, if I used the word surge incorrectly, microbubbles do occur! :D Maybe you can clarify it for me, I tried to research it a little and couldn't find much on it, other than storm surge. I'm familiar with storm surge as I've handled hundreds of hurricane claims over the last 20 years.

 

[Lasse]

I have been working in public aquaria for 9 years and have never heard of any public aquarium doing this. Which ones are your referring to?

The same here - but for 14 years - have not hear about this here in Scandinavia. Heavy aeration - yes but nanobubbles - no

I´m new here so I´m not used of your forum - written or unwritten rules - so maybe its wrong to ask for a link to the best thread concerning dinos in this forum just in order to save time for me (not using the search button ;))

Which of your threads about Dinos are best for me to start reading? I´m looking for experiences rather than theoretical discussions


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tautog]

I still new at keeping saltwater, but if my power heads and returns are moving the surface water rapidly, isn't the bubbles over kill?
I have coraline algae all over. I shut down the power heads during feeding. My water quality is crystal.
With bubbles, are we not creating an increase in evaporation? Salt build up on the canopy?
I'm I wrong to think moving surface water adds O2 better than bubbles?
I'm sure both would increase O2, but what about super-saturated O2 water affecting the gills of my fish?
This is a great thread. An extremely important point.

 

[Lowstorm]

The same here - but for 14 years - have not hear about this here in Scandinavia. Heavy aeration - yes but nanobubbles - no

I´m new here so I´m not used of your forum - written or unwritten rules - so maybe its wrong to ask for a link to the best thread concerning dinos in this forum just in order to save time for me (not using the search button ;))

Which of your threads about Dinos are best for me to start reading? I´m looking for experiences rather than theoretical discussions


Sincerely Lasse

Sent you a pm regarding dinos

 

[Thales]

This confused me a little because I always assumed surge was an increase in water volume, such as storm surge, from hurricanes, etc. and I assumed it can also mean the force produced by a wave, creating a surge of water, such as what happened in this video, which introduced fresh o2 into the water, directly into the reef. Regardless, if I used the word surge incorrectly, microbubbles do occur! :D Maybe you can clarify it for me, I tried to research it a little and couldn't find much on it, other than storm surge. I'm familiar with storm surge as I've handled hundreds of hurricane claims over the last 20 years.

I am not sure what the video you posted has to do with the conversation about bubbling. Surge can mean different things. Surge in the ocean is not the same as a surge tank. :D

 

[furam28]

I think the onus is on the proponents of this method to show evidence that microbubble scrubbing is beneficial for fish and corals in the long term. Saying your water is clear and your corals have better PE after a week of use is anecdotal at best. Microbubbles may be increasing oxygenation / air-exchange, and acting as a skimmer to bring dissolved organic nutrients to the surface. That part I am not too skeptical about. But like most of the skeptics here have pointed out, a good skimmer will do just that. Does converting your whole DT into a skimmer has any additive effect in that regard? Maybe, maybe not. What I am more interested in is the slime response from the corals. Corals in the wild produce copious amounts of slime when exposed to air as a defense mechanism against drying during low tide. With microbubble scrubbing you are seeing just that - corals triggered to thinking they are exposed to air and hence triggering their slime defense. Is daily slime defense triggering a good thing in the long run? Will it improve growth and/or coloration of acropora for example, or will it be detrimental? Only time can tell. The slime production is most likely acting as a nutrient export since the slime is rich in protein (nitrogen) and this is getting removed by the skimmer, so in effect you are dramatically increasing daily nutrient export. I am concerned about what effect this has on the health of corals, since you are basically creating a chronic stress. Its like me giving myself diarrhea every day to lose weight. Sure, it will be effective for weight loss, but it will also damage my organs.

 

[brandon429]

remember I have corals that have been bubbled for sixteen years, that is true long term test, maybe the longest here on the thread. its no effect either way long term.

 

[furam28]

remember I have corals that have been bubbled for sixteen years, that is true long term test, maybe the longest here on the thread. its no effect either way long term.

Good to know. What type of corals do you have. Any high-end acroporas with good coloration, since they are the ones most sensitive to stress and swings, and respond to stress by browning. Would love to see some pics.

 

[Keepswiming]

This thread is a very interesting read. I have been battling Cyano and algae in my display for a while now. The tank is a 125g display and i have been doing at least 20% water-changes on it weekly. I have a light bioload but feed frozen daily. Recently i have been having some issues with my sps and low ph but i cant seem to figure it out. I took the biopellets off because i "assumed" it was the source of carbon for the cyano. The reason i am telling you all this is because i am at the point where i am ok with being the test tank for this Micro bubble theory. I also have a 50 gallon cube that wasn't running pellets and is suffering from the cyano as well. They both have the same batch of rock and use the same homemade RODI salt water, so maybe it is something leeching from the rocks instead. I am willing to try this on my display to see if it will help with the algae and cyano issues as well as increase my coral health. I have setup a bubbler into my return and took pictures and video of the tank and apex charts to monitor the change. If there are any suggestions for me to test please let me know. I hope that this is the miracle that helps my display thrive! haha BTW the second Ph does not have a probe anymore.

 

[brandon429]

no mine are all low end acros lol for pico reefs we don't have the goodies avail out here in panhandle texas and if we did theyd cost too much. not able to remark on decades of color morphing, only the overall physicality. the bubbling doesn't cause constant sliming, that's an initial response from corals not used to bubbling it goes away/down shortly after the process is employed. my test corals are all standard lps and regular sps in pico reefs with typical live rock inclusions like sponges pods worms coralline etc.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

remember I have corals that have been bubbled for sixteen years, that is true long term test, maybe the longest here on the thread. its no effect either way long term.

So, how are those long term results?

 

[Reeflogic]

I am not sure what the video you posted has to do with the conversation about bubbling. Surge can mean different things. Surge in the ocean is not the same as a surge tank. :D

Well, again, I'm confused on your statement. Can you explain how it is different? Not trying to argue, I'd just like to understand it. :)

As far as the video I posted, it goes back to my prior post where I stated that over the years I have observed successful surge systems, which is essentially creating the same effect as what you see at the end of the video. Whether you call it surge, flow, waves, increased water movement, it is pulling in fresh oxygen and saturating the water, creating random size bubbles and everything on that particular reef is thriving. I assume, which may not be the appropriate thing to do on this thread, is the folks that are attempting to incorporate this "micro-bubble scrubbing" are trying to replicate what is shown in the video.

Sure, more homework, testing, etc. needs to be done, especially how it affects certain animals, such as acro, or acans or sponges or even fish. Someone posted earlier that they are trying it for 10 minutes per hour, which is more in line with the surge systems I have observed over the years, so maybe tweaks to how it is set up will produce better or possibly even worse results. Only time will tell.

Is daily slime defense triggering a good thing in the long run?

I think most people have posted results that indicate their corals only show this slime response in the early stages and then the sliming stops or slows down, at least, what I have read so far and is also the case for my system. The first night they slimed pretty good and then minimal to none in the following nights. What you posted is very interesting, though.

I'm going to continue using it on my system until I see adverse effects or no effect at all. I don't mind trying something new to see if it increases coral growth, the health of the animals, etc. :D

 

[brandon429]

The long term results in my opinion are null, no change in eco status either way after the bubbling. there's been some posts in the chem forum about changes in nitrate, interesting chemical changes -possibly- via the bubbling but those aren't universally measured and are still becoming known, tbd.

corals have adaptive measures to accomplish all things in our tanks with or without the bubbling imo. the end result is no impactful change compared to not bubbling given decent setups that don't retain CO2 on the counter options etc.