Mike Paletta finally recognizes some of the superior qualities of METAL HALIDES over LEDs...

[MnFish1]

If metal halides are so great for what Mike Paletta wants to use, this thread will be appreciated by many people. This is my best contribution to the hobby.
A decade ago we were not even welcome here to try to discuss about metal halides. I'm happy today we actually can talk and have a discussion that grabs attention with some users and the video featuring Mike could be the beginning of a new understanding about lighting a reef tank. Bring the old and make it new! That is what's more important! Thanks for participating!

What you don't seem to 'get' - is that >90 percent of the video you posted says nothing about metal halides - vs LED's - and the small part that does - has nothing to do with what you said with your OP?

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

 

[jcolliii]

The goal here is to let people know we all have the right to choose what we want.
If the LED market didn't start putting metal halides down since the beginning maybe we would never argue about that. But the very first LED, Solaris, compared it's "benefits" against metal halide. Then others also followed the trend up to this date! They are still doing it! Radion did. Sky recently did.
Did you ever see any advertisement comparing halides to LEDs as they were the best? Nope. They don't need to do that.
What if Mike decides to go halides again because he thinks it's the best?
Well.. he already said the best tank he ever had was under halides.
We all have the right to choose. That's all.

I *don't care* what Mike does or doesn't do.

 

[A. grandis]

What you don't seem to 'get' - is that >90 percent of the video you posted says nothing about metal halides - vs LED's - and the small part that does - has nothing to do with what you said with your OP?

Is that a problem? This is the forum to discuss lighting.
Yet, since the beginning we saw mostly people getting upset defending their LEDs justifying why they choose their lights. They never say anything about quality, but use the same excuses.
I mean... which is fine, if they want to go that route.

Bottom line... will Mike see better results using those halides?
Will his tank have less problems with STN/RTN?
Will the corals grow wild and be actually more colorful?
I think the most important thing is that he is willing to try and that he believes the halides will be better in many ways.
I've been telling him for a long time.
I guess I was very excited when I posted this thread and happy for him.
I know I'm happy for many here that are using halides after they saw some of my posts. I think that is priceless when people see for themselves and find a better way for their particular system.
Again... we all should be able to use what we want.
I have more friends using LEDs than T5s or halides and they are still my friends.

 

[A. grandis]

I *don't care* what Mike does or doesn't do.

LOL! No problem!
Should you care about this thread, then?
LOL!

 

[A. grandis]

LOL!!!! Love it! Thanks for cooling the thread down a bit! LOL!!!

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

LOL!!!! Love it! Thanks for cooling the thread down a bit! LOL!!!

What can I say, I’m a giver!

 

[A. grandis]

Love you all. No matter how hot it can get here. LOL!
I was off today! Will be back to work and unable to post.
Have fun with your tanks!
Thanks to the MODs for the patience and all of you for participating!
God bless you all and your families!

 

[Protodad]

Companies make loads more on LED fixtures. It's not even close either. I remember hearing the first big LED manufacturer for our hobby (PFO or Solaris I believe) stating he had to sell 4 halide setups for every 1 LED setup to make the same money.

To the rest of your points, I've talked directly with BRS about this and they'd love to bring halides back in (we'll probably see Reef Brite halides brought in soon enough) but the truth is they were selling 1000s of LEDs per every halide fixture sold.

For everyone else in the thread, glad to see the same 5-6 people personally attacking yet again. I know, I know. Grandis "asks for it" with his passionate, crazy talk. So we're told at least. If the attackers would stop responding, these threads would die much quicker. You're actually doing Grandis a favor by keeping them towards the top ;Hilarious

BRS basically said the opposite yesterday on YT so I have a pretty hard time believing this. As most people should know by now, the bulbs themselves aren’t made by all these companies putting their name on them. Just because you make a fixture (likely from new old stock) doesn’t make you an industry leader.

 

[jcolliii]

I like tube amps. There are NOS tubes and repops made in China and Russia. The new tubes are mostly pretty crappy. But I can get by because I can find parts, I can repair stuff myself, and I accumulated a nice hoard of KT88's, 6550's, 12by7a's and gobs of preamp tubes. When you rock anachronistic tech, you do what you need to. I suggest stocking up on the bulbs you like and buying some extra parts... cause I don't see them making a comeback.

 

[jcolliii]

A lot of the points you bullet in your opening salvo leave me scratching my head somewhat.

What bulbs would you rock that replicate natural daylight? 20k's certainly don't do that. If you want the bast spectrum for your corals put your tank outside. I visited Steve Garrett years ago, and his corals grow like absolute weeds. They aren't much to look at though - the color isn't that great. Need to excite those fluorescent pigments to get that color and you won't do that with a daylight MH bulb that replicates solar radiation.

Utilizing the full spectrum as you say "(from UV to IR, in the majority of aquarium bulbs we can choose!)"... you do know that IR is just heat, right - so that part of the spectrum we don't want...

UV is a non issue because we have LEDs for that.

Emerson affect is deep red, not IR. IR is heat. Again, LED fixtures have deep red. And without the heat.

Delivering photons to the right place? Now you sound like an LED infomercial - certainly not a MH one.

I KNOW, based on having used LED's, T5s, and MH that LED's are by far the best option that *I have used*. I can tune the light to the look the way I want, I get fluorescence and color that is amazing, I can tune the output without having to have a pendant 2 feet off of the water blasting photons all over my room at walls that don't calcify nor grow, and heating it up by a good 5+ degrees. Putting photons where they belong, indeed. And the corals respond by growing. Better than under T5's, and better than under halides. And it's absolute crap that anyone can say MH doesn't heat up your room (or the tank water). Yeah, your house stays cool, because your AC comes on 3x as much. Absolutely untruthful. MH was the ONLY lightsource I ever used that required fans pointed across the water surface to keep the tank below 80 degrees.

Bottom line: It's your decision to favor an anachronistic light source, but calling it superior... for the reasons you listed... dunno 'bout that. You ever try LEDs?

Edit: yep, I engaged.

 

[jcolliii]

Power savings are NOT trivial either. 1x 400 watt fixture at average kWh for the upper midwest.

 

[oreo54]

 

[Ef4life]

I miss my old ushio 14k 70w bulbs. the 70w China specials that I can get now just don’t compare.

Mushrooms just loved the ushio - I used to go in there with scissors and start hacking them back and throwing them away.

 

[a hill]

California is the prime example state of "green", specially in terms of water and electricity savings. Yet, the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco uses 76 X 1000W metal halide fixtures using 10K and 14K Hamilton bulbs over their huge 200,000+ gallon system.

This is just an absurd argument. Most facilities already had sunk the capital into MH and thats the simple reason why they are still used.

In public aquaria MH traditionally were also used because they are strong enough to illuminate the large displays.

In the public aquaria, the Heat from MH lighting is accounted for to see the room at tropical temperatures. These tanks are not sitting in a home.

Do they have a nice output spectrum? Yes they do. LED are getting better and better too. If you want "better IR or UV" all you need to do is build a LED light system specific to your needs. This is the easiest it has ever been.

MH bulbs have a host of issues if you want to compare it to plastic, they're much worse.

While MH do have their uses, advocating for the return of these as a mainstay compared to an excellent LED unit is absolutely bizarre.

I feel like someone has a stockpile of worthless MH bulbs looking for homes.

The vast majority of new institutional builds are LED along with public aquaria. Some are off the rack Kessil or Radeon and others are industrial sized custom or semi custom monstrosities.

I'm guessing others voiced similar opinions in the 8 pages of posts I have yet to read. I just really hate when people pervert the truth especially on a platform where so many impressionable new hobbyists are. Its irresponsible.

Work to improve available LED offerings, don't advocate the undoing of advancement!

Succinctly,
-Andrew

PS. After reading the rest of the thread (almost.. 7 pages is when I could take no more) I feel compelled to caution A. Grandis in what he is writing. The things you are posting and promoting are at times borderline libel. If Mike reads all this with you misrepresenting his words and all types of stuff and chose to, an attorney could make life, interesting for you. You liking MH is fine, but using his likeness in the way you are is not.

pps. all my kessils are are aluminum.

 

[A. grandis]

This is just an absurd argument. Most facilities already had sunk the capital into MH and thats the simple reason why they are still used.

In public aquaria MH traditionally were also used because they are strong enough to illuminate the large displays.

In the public aquaria, the Heat from MH lighting is accounted for to see the room at tropical temperatures. These tanks are not sitting in a home.

Do they have a nice output spectrum? Yes they do. LED are getting better and better too. If you want "better IR or UV" all you need to do is build a LED light system specific to your needs. This is the easiest it has ever been.

MH bulbs have a host of issues if you want to compare it to plastic, they're much worse.

While MH do have their uses, advocating for the return of these as a mainstay compared to an excellent LED unit is absolutely bizarre.

I feel like someone has a stockpile of worthless MH bulbs looking for homes.

The vast majority of new institutional builds are LED along with public aquaria. Some are off the rack Kessil or Radeon and others are industrial sized custom or semi custom monstrosities.

I'm guessing others voiced similar opinions in the 8 pages of posts I have yet to read. I just really hate when people pervert the truth especially on a platform where so many impressionable new hobbyists are. Its irresponsible.

Work to improve available LED offerings, don't advocate the undoing of advancement!

Succinctly,
-Andrew

PS. After reading the rest of the thread (almost.. 7 pages is when I could take no more) I feel compelled to caution A. Grandis in what he is writing. The things you are posting and promoting are at times borderline libel. If Mike reads all this with you misrepresenting his words and all types of stuff and chose to, an attorney could make life, interesting for you. You liking MH is fine, but using his likeness in the way you are is not.

pps. all my kessils are are aluminum.

LOL! You must be kidding me! You're very funny!
Everything I posted here is truth. Do you think I'm joking or lying?
You should watch all the videos and see that the MAIN reason public aquariums are changing back to halides is SPECTRUM. Yes, the so called "professional line " of LEDs already exists, doesn't have same intensity, but what has been changing their minds is spectrum alone. Tullio also has been publishing that over and over again. You simply don't know.
You should read all and watch all the videos too.
You act as I was against whoever you think here, while in truth I am trying to help us all. I am not against even LED companies trying their best to innovate and sell. I'm against when they actually say their products are BETTER than halides o T5 to sell. They're NOT! The application is what dictates the choice.
BRS is a great company that give us great deal sometimes! They produce some nice videos, but they are great at selling. And they should!!! LOL! I don't blame them! That is business!!! I buy from the company since they started.
Every type of lighting has it's place. Halides should also have their place and have no discrimination! Period!
I'm not saying anything against the law here and I speak as a consumer with the right of free speech, so try to be more down to Earth and read more carefully what I have posted. Try not to impose anything like that whithout searching first.
I am a customer that buys aquarium products from different places.
Mike would laugh at your words. LOL! He is actually very excited about trying his halides. Mike is one of the best guys out there and he know how much I respect him and my vision. He is not worried about what you or anyone thinks of him trying what he wants. We learn a lot always in this life!

Work to respect the fact that some of us would love to have more metal halide and T5 options out there. The improvement and availability of LEDs is already there, my dear. Can you say the same about the other 2 types? Do you think it would be fair to allow that to happen as well?
I get lot's or private messages and emails about metal halide and T5s because many friends here are just afraid of posting their questions in public. That needs to change, don't you think? Would we need 3 separated lighting forums, so we don't argue?
I think we are a community and should think that way. We shouldn't see each other as enemies. That is ridiculous! This is a hobby!

Enjoy your Kessils. They try to imitate my halides and are a great option for that.
No hard feelings.

 

[Protodad]

This is just an absurd argument. Most facilities already had sunk the capital into MH and thats the simple reason why they are still used.

In public aquaria MH traditionally were also used because they are strong enough to illuminate the large displays.

In the public aquaria, the Heat from MH lighting is accounted for to see the room at tropical temperatures. These tanks are not sitting in a home.

Do they have a nice output spectrum? Yes they do. LED are getting better and better too. If you want "better IR or UV" all you need to do is build a LED light system specific to your needs. This is the easiest it has ever been.

MH bulbs have a host of issues if you want to compare it to plastic, they're much worse.

While MH do have their uses, advocating for the return of these as a mainstay compared to an excellent LED unit is absolutely bizarre.

I feel like someone has a stockpile of worthless MH bulbs looking for homes.

The vast majority of new institutional builds are LED along with public aquaria. Some are off the rack Kessil or Radeon and others are industrial sized custom or semi custom monstrosities.

I'm guessing others voiced similar opinions in the 8 pages of posts I have yet to read. I just really hate when people pervert the truth especially on a platform where so many impressionable new hobbyists are. Its irresponsible.

Work to improve available LED offerings, don't advocate the undoing of advancement!

Succinctly,
-Andrew

PS. After reading the rest of the thread (almost.. 7 pages is when I could take no more) I feel compelled to caution A. Grandis in what he is writing. The things you are posting and promoting are at times borderline libel. If Mike reads all this with you misrepresenting his words and all types of stuff and chose to, an attorney could make life, interesting for you. You liking MH is fine, but using his likeness in the way you are is not.

pps. all my kessils are are aluminum.

I bet you could go a step further. I would love a case study of ANY large public aquarium (especially in CA) that specifically went from MH to LED back to MH. I would bet money that literally zero of them have or would considering the environmental trade offs and their commitment to conservation. They literally couldn’t in good conscience.

 

[Protodad]

I think we are a community and should think that way. We shouldn't see each other as enemies. That is ridiculous! This is a hobby!

Enjoy your Kessils. They try to imitate my halides and are a great option for that.
No hard feelings

You understand that this is why you alienated a lot of people. You keep trying to claim you are on some neutral ground but in the next breath claim something is inferior.

You are flat out wrong though. It’s well documented that MH=T5=LED to provide the spectrum and par that coral need to grow. However, out of the 3, MH has some of the worst trade offs. I can’t imagine any Reefer actually suggesting that the right light for someone entering the hobby is a MH.

You are purposefully making a statement that MH is superior, purposefully ignoring studies to the opposite and purposefully ignoring the major drawbacks that come with MH. Then you turn around and accuse everyone else of what you are doing.

 

[jcolliii]

@Mike Paletta - could you please confirm you have said these things?

 

[oreo54]

@Mike Paletta - could you please confirm you have said these things?

REally all he said was that his current lights didn't have UV an "possibly" since metal halides do it could offer some err "antiseptic" properties.
Thing is t5's also have little to no uv of any value.
Plenty of t5 only tanks out there that are just fine.
So even if it does contribute this is not a LED issue per se..

Selective hearing is a terrible thing.

UV has some proof of anti-pest properties in horticulture so there is that.
It has zero proof of aiding growth over any other wavelengths but may improve flavor and quantities of ancillary compounds of some value to "quality"
IF one wanted to eat corals or make err "medicines" out of them maybe it would be helpful.

Either way it is all speculative and his future "proof" would be very circumstantial to say the least.
Adding true UV diodes of quality to a fixture is no big deal, though would impact costs a bit.

This "things are harder" than in the "good old days" could have numerous causes and I doubt if MH tanks are 'immune' from it.