Mindstream

[Murica]

I think the theory was right, maybe they were expecting someone to buy them out

 

[User1]

I think the theory was right, maybe they were expecting someone to buy them out

The problem with that mindset is that the two major players already had things covered. I sure hope that wasn't their play.

 

[robbyg]

One person cancels it is 1,000.00. If 10, it is 10,000. 20? You can do the math... I'm not buying the "we didn't expect this much demand" line either. Anyone with half a brain knows the hobby has been anticipating the automated product be it reagent based, disc, or probe. Heck, they could have sat back, ate popcorn, and read all of the trident threads about their demand issues.

They should never have opened orders and they shouldn't have requested money up front if they couldn't fulfill them. That is a executive management decision miscue (and I'm not talking about pool) which very well could have cost them the company. Just my opinion.

Trident is a product with an already established user base of Apex owners. It's pretty easy for Neptune to estimate what percentage of thier user base will buy a Trident. Yet somehow they still have the same issue as MS of not being able to supply customers.

 

[User1]

Trident is a product with an already established user base of Apex owners. It's pretty easy for Neptune to estimate what percentage of thier user base will buy a Trident. Yet somehow they still have the same issue as MS of not being able to supply customers.

I don't think so. If Neptune did that they maybe they would have delayed the launch a bit while banking Tridents to handle the demand. They didn't. What sets them apart at the moment is that they stepped up, explained what the hold up is, and are letting the rat work its way through the snakes body while working through their last mile calibration and inspection.

Mindstream is still working on how to manufacture a disc post launch to meet demand while also communication honestly to the buyers they already took money from. About the only thing they have in common is demand. I'm going out on a limb here and say GHL is watching both and probably working a few things out to not be in a similar position.

 

[robbyg]

I don't think so. If Neptune did that they maybe they would have delayed the launch a bit while banking Tridents to handle the demand. They didn't. What sets them apart at the moment is that they stepped up, explained what the hold up is, and are letting the rat work its way through the snakes body while working through their last mile calibration and inspection.

Mindstream is still working on how to manufacture a disc post launch to meet demand while also communication honestly to the buyers they already took money from. About the only thing they have in common is demand. I'm going out on a limb here and say GHL is watching both and probably working a few things out to not be in a similar position.

LOL Neptune used the first few months figuring out how to ship bottles of reagent that didn't leak everywhere. That is not rocket science! The first solution was a doozy. Put them in a bag so they leak into the bag and not onto other peoples FedEx boxes. ;Meh

So what is the real reason for the holdup with the Trident? I am not really following it. All I see is people saying they cannot get one. I checked at Marine Depot, none in stock and no reagents in stock. I looked at BRS and no Trident but you can get the reagents. GHL is probably going to run into the same problem. Every company is trying to get theirs out to market as fast as possible. This makes them take risks. Sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't!

 

[User1]

LOL Neptune used the first few months figuring out how to ship bottles of reagent that didn't leak everywhere. That is not rocket science! The first solution was a doozy. Put them in a bag so they leak into the bag and not onto other peoples FedEx boxes. ;Meh

Short term, long term. Understand where the problem is and what stage in their pipeline. They solved it. Doesn't matter in the end as they are shipping products and the demand is still there. Most feedback around the interweb is that it is working as expected. Not problem free of course which is why there have been at least 1 firmware update and documentation updates. Above all Neptune communicated during the roll out.

So what is the real reason for the holdup with the Trident? I am not really following it. All I see is people saying they cannot get one. I checked at Marine Depot, none in stock and no reagents in stock. I looked at BRS and no Trident but you can get the reagents.

Per Neptune - and the video is out there should you want to watch it, which I don't see a reason why you would, is that it isn't say similar to ordering 1,000 more pumps from the manufacture. Here the issue is the last mile before final shipment. They do the final calibration, tests, or checks at the office before sending them to retailers. The hold up is people through put and honestly may not make sense to throw bodies at the issue since there is lag time to bring people and quality up to speed. At least that is my understanding but could be wrong.

GHL is probably going to run into the same problem. Every company is trying to get theirs out to market as fast as possible. This makes them take risks. Sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't!

I don't know about GHL. I heard through the rumor mill that they are running into some probe issues or had or something. But please don't take my word for it. At best they are probably watching and learning from both of the respected companies we are talking about here. If they are not then they are being a bit foolish. Just my opinion.

 

[TheKylersFire]

I’m now 11 weeks waiting. Do I think it’s a scam? no.

Mindstream will deliver in their due time. It only took them 7 years to launch product lol

They are under staffed under funded etc. they will catch up. Give them time.

 

[bam123]

I’m now 11 weeks waiting. Do I think it’s a scam? no.

Mindstream will deliver in their due time. It only took them 7 years to launch product lol

They are under staffed under funded etc. they will catch up. Give them time.

They have not returned emails or phone calls from me (including today) for the past two weeks. I hope you are right...

 

[TheKylersFire]

They have not returned emails or phone calls from me (including today) for the past two weeks. I hope you are right...

Maybe I’m overly not concerned because I put it on my AMEX and they are great with this type of thing but I know a couple people who have received theirs and I spoke directly with the guys at Macna. They are definitely overwhelmed but they had sold about 5k units when I talked to them. That’s a 2 million dollar a year business on subscription alone plus the 4-5 million they did in sales after some discounting. Not a huge company but should be enough to get them through their current phase. If not that’s enough to get another larger company interested in their product. I run a small business of my own and things always take 4-5x longer then you hope lol

 

[Oldreefer44]

If they have really sold 5k units, with a staff of around 14 people, some of which are part time, I would estimate that there is a back log of a few years for some purchasers. The fact that the first discs to be sent to subscribers were a week late is also not a good sign.

 

[robbyg]

Per Neptune - and the video is out there should you want to watch it, which I don't see a reason why you would, is that it isn't say similar to ordering 1,000 more pumps from the manufacture. Here the issue is the last mile before final shipment. They do the final calibration, tests, or checks at the office before sending them to retailers. The hold up is people through put and honestly may not make sense to throw bodies at the issue since there is lag time to bring people and quality up to speed. At least that is my understanding but could be wrong.

Well that is interesting because that is the same issue that Mindstream is having.
They already tried throwing more people at the disk making issue and found out that the new people could not properly do the calibration part of it consistently. They also made assembly mistakes and overall just created a huge QC issue for them with bad disks. They could have kept on going and in the end they would have probably had enough trained people making fewer and fewer mistakes but they instead opted for robotic manufacturing so that they every customer would get a perfect disk and they could ramp up their production quantities far beyond what would be needed for today or even for the next two years.

 

[User1]

Well that is interesting because that is the same issue that Mindstream is having.
They already tried throwing more people at the disk making issue and found out that the new people could not properly do the calibration part of it consistently. They also made assembly mistakes and overall just created a huge QC issue for them with bad disks. They could have kept on going and in the end they would have probably had enough trained people making fewer and fewer mistakes but they instead opted for robotic manufacturing so that they every customer would get a perfect disk and they could ramp up their production quantities far beyond what would be needed for today or even for the next two years.

I don't know. One is last mile the other is manufacturing a disc. I would have assumed (i'm incorrect here) that they would have done this from the get go for obvious reasons (monthly subscription = steady supply of discs).

But - this could be part of the equation on how to best use the money you have. Manually build now - automate or out source later. I really don't know and not my call. I can see how opening up the books and then seeing the demand running into an issue here.

danged if you do, danged if you don't.

 

[robbyg]

I don't know. One is last mile the other is manufacturing a disc. I would have assumed (i'm incorrect here) that they would have done this from the get go for obvious reasons (monthly subscription = steady supply of discs).

But - this could be part of the equation on how to best use the money you have. Manually build now - automate or out source later. I really don't know and not my call. I can see how opening up the books and then seeing the demand running into an issue here.

danged if you do, danged if you don't.

Money is always an issue for a startup. You have to use it wisely to get enough product out the door before you can start to look at other issues.
I am not sure why people harp on the MS subscription model so much. Your basically on a subscription plan with the Trident. Disks or Reagents it does not matter, there is no third party source for either, so your going to have to buy X amount of product from the respective companies every year.

 

[User1]

Money is always an issue for a startup. You have to use it wisely to get enough product out the door before you can start to look at other issues.
I am not sure why people harp on the MS subscription model so much. Your basically on a subscription plan with the Trident. Disks or Reagents it does not matter, there is no third party source for either, so your going to have to buy X amount of product from the respective companies every year.

Same reason why people harp on reagent use

It is a different price and test sample point. The hobbyist is left to choose. If a MS disc runs you 35/year - 12 months in a year so roughly $420. Trident is $100 for a 6 month supply - 12 months is $200. This will net you a years worth of minimum tests. Didn't include tax on either or any other discounts that may or may not happen such as whatever holiday or door busters because the world is ending.

Now we both know the Trident tests three things vs the trident testing more. Is that important? Does that increase or decrease the cost or return on investment? That again depends on the hobbyist. What would matter or at least what I think they have in common is saving the hobbyist time by test automation. So if you test all the things either unit does all one has to do is put a price on that and decide.

Having already a Apex it made no sense to me financially to buy a MS. So there is that. I'll also say as being a data horder and one who has cut the cord only to go back recently monthly subscriptions add up. Personal choice I would rather pay up front a whole year of that subscription or reagent use so I see it and it isn't sapping my account. This doesn't apply to all people because we are all different in our money. Some of you are really good at it.

So Amazon, Netflix, Hulu, and all these other subscriptions that nickel and dime you with low costs add up (just an example). Personally I don't see it working out for them in the long term because MS doesn't offer any middle ground in that monthly offering. Less tests or visible data as one example. No discounts for military, students, nurses, or just cool people (had to cover all bases, right?). No 3, 6, 9, or 12 month packages. All or nothing.

So that is why I harp on the product not to mention you are still paying upfront. If I didn't have an Apex then my two choices would be Apex or GHL or none. Just an honest answer as to why. And also I know you know I'm just busting your chops on the reagents. You are the one person I'm expecting some information on how the MS works once you get it installed.

 

[robbyg]

Same reason why people harp on reagent use

It is a different price and test sample point. The hobbyist is left to choose. If a MS disc runs you 35/year - 12 months in a year so roughly $420. Trident is $100 for a 6 month supply - 12 months is $200. This will net you a years worth of minimum tests. Didn't include tax on either or any other discounts that may or may not happen such as whatever holiday or door busters because the world is ending.

Now we both know the Trident tests three things vs the trident testing more. Is that important? Does that increase or decrease the cost or return on investment? That again depends on the hobbyist. What would matter or at least what I think they have in common is saving the hobbyist time by test automation. So if you test all the things either unit does all one has to do is put a price on that and decide.

Having already a Apex it made no sense to me financially to buy a MS. So there is that. I'll also say as being a data horder and one who has cut the cord only to go back recently monthly subscriptions add up. Personal choice I would rather pay up front a whole year of that subscription or reagent use so I see it and it isn't sapping my account. This doesn't apply to all people because we are all different in our money. Some of you are really good at it.

So Amazon, Netflix, Hulu, and all these other subscriptions that nickel and dime you with low costs add up (just an example). Personally I don't see it working out for them in the long term because MS doesn't offer any middle ground in that monthly offering. Less tests or visible data as one example. No discounts for military, students, nurses, or just cool people (had to cover all bases, right?). No 3, 6, 9, or 12 month packages. All or nothing.

So that is why I harp on the product not to mention you are still paying upfront. If I didn't have an Apex then my two choices would be Apex or GHL or none. Just an honest answer as to why. And also I know you know I'm just busting your chops on the reagents. You are the one person I'm expecting some information on how the MS works once you get it installed.

The whole testing things IMHO is pretty clear cut. The seven extra tests that you get with the MS cannot be ignored or just so easily dismissed. Even if you already have a controller testing pH, I am pretty sure you also have a backup system to confirm those readings. Same with Salinity and boy with the Apex you really do need a good salinity and temp backup. The mindstream is that backup and it is also remotely accessible.

Then you have CO2 which is something that can plague many aquarium owners and they don't even realize it. Ammonia which is great for knowing how well your tank is dealing with your feeding amounts. Oxygen! Do you know how much a good Oxygen probe costs? I think I spent about $400 on my oxygen probe and module. It is also very useful as it changes drastically if the tank is having issues that don't show up on normal testing. Potassium is another item that you get for your money. How important that is I don't know, but it is there and may be important to people growing expensive SPS corals.

At the end of the day for me it's about all these test and also about the ability to have real time numbers and being able to see cause and effect right in front of me. So those 96 tests a day are worth the extra money versus four.

As for me posting data when I get mine. I am surely going to be doing that as soon as I get a month to play with it and gather enough data to make a meaningful monthly graph.

 

[TARHEEL78]

Same reason why people harp on reagent use

It is a different price and test sample point. The hobbyist is left to choose. If a MS disc runs you 35/year - 12 months in a year so roughly $420. Trident is $100 for a 6 month supply - 12 months is $200. This will net you a years worth of minimum tests. Didn't include tax on either or any other discounts that may or may not happen such as whatever holiday or door busters because the world is ending.

Now we both know the Trident tests three things vs the trident testing more. Is that important? Does that increase or decrease the cost or return on investment? That again depends on the hobbyist. What would matter or at least what I think they have in common is saving the hobbyist time by test automation. So if you test all the things either unit does all one has to do is put a price on that and decide.

Having already a Apex it made no sense to me financially to buy a MS. So there is that. I'll also say as being a data horder and one who has cut the cord only to go back recently monthly subscriptions add up. Personal choice I would rather pay up front a whole year of that subscription or reagent use so I see it and it isn't sapping my account. This doesn't apply to all people because we are all different in our money. Some of you are really good at it.

So Amazon, Netflix, Hulu, and all these other subscriptions that nickel and dime you with low costs add up (just an example). Personally I don't see it working out for them in the long term because MS doesn't offer any middle ground in that monthly offering. Less tests or visible data as one example. No discounts for military, students, nurses, or just cool people (had to cover all bases, right?). No 3, 6, 9, or 12 month packages. All or nothing.

So that is why I harp on the product not to mention you are still paying upfront. If I didn't have an Apex then my two choices would be Apex or GHL or none. Just an honest answer as to why. And also I know you know I'm just busting your chops on the reagents. You are the one person I'm expecting some information on how the MS works once you get it installed.

I'm not sure if I'm misreading what you typed but MS does have a 12 month package instead of monthly and it is cheaper that way. $40 monthly or $420 for a year.

 

[User1]

At the end of the day for me it's about all these test and also about the ability to have real time numbers and being able to see cause and effect right in front of me. So those 96 tests a day are worth the extra money versus four.

That is all that matters. I'm not trying to sell you something. You find value in the number of tests and frequency it will give you. I find value in what the trident tests and its frequency. There is really no right or wrong answer here other than what works for you. I do not test water. I do not enjoy it at all. When I did it was Ca, Alk, and Mag. I would mix in Nitrate and phosphate at times. The tests that got done the most are the easiest ones that used the Hanna checkers. Not going to lie...

As for me posting data when I get mine. I am surely going to be doing that as soon as I get a month to play with it and gather enough data to make a meaningful monthly graph.

Hope you get yours soon.[/QUOTE]

 

[User1]

I'm not sure if I'm misreading what you typed but MS does have a 12 month package instead of monthly and it is cheaper that way. $40 monthly or $420 for a year.

I don't know if they do or don't - as you can see I just did 12 x 35. If it is cheaper, and one would expect that they do something like that, then great. I wasn't trying to break it down by cost per test...

 

[TARHEEL78]

I don't know if they do or don't - as you can see I just did 12 x 35. If it is cheaper, and one would expect that they do something like that, then great. I wasn't trying to break it down by cost per test...

That's what I'm saying. They do, paying by the month is $40 but if you buy the 12 month subscription it's $420.

 

[bam123]

Ryan from mindstream is in hiding. I am glad I have an email-history. Notified my bank to dispute transaction. Of course, tomorrow I will find out that the mindstream has shipped. THat's how I roll Honestly, I hope mindstream works out. I just can't go along with the ride. The thing I screw up with most is alkalinity as I overshoot frequently. For now, setting up auto-water change with apex and trying the trident method (not buying a trident). I don't like the idea of automated dosers based on lab values.