My Current QT Process

blackstallion

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Abstract
The effect of chlorine (12, 60, and 120 ppm available chlorine concentrations), benzalkonium chloride (100 ppm), freshwater, heat (40 °C), and drying on the hatching ability of Heterobothrium okamotoi eggs and Cryptocaryon irritans cysts was examined. The eggs and cysts at an early stage (1–16 h after spawning or leaving the host for H. okamotoi and C. irritans, respectively) and at a late stage (72–87 h) were exposed to each treatment for 1 or 24 h. Hatching of H. okamotoi eggs and C. irritans cysts was completely suppressed at both early and late stages when they were exposed to heat for 1 h. Exposure to chlorine at a concentration of more than 60 ppm available chlorine or to drying for 24 h was also effective in preventing hatching completely. However, freshwater had limited effect on preventing hatching of both parasites. Although benzalkonium chloride treatment for 1 h prevented hatching of C. irritans cysts completely, it was not effective against H. okamotoi eggs. One-hour treatments with chlorine (2.4 and 12 ppm) or benzalkonium chloride (100 ppm),or heat (40 °C) killed hatched H. okamotoi oncomiracidia and C. irritans theronts. These methods would be useful to prevent the horizontal infection with these parasites from used equipment, tanks, and wastewater in fish-rearing facilities.
410F7252-E8A9-4E67-9EFE-FB93A40979F3.jpeg
What is benzalkonium chloride? Seems like between it or exposing to 40 °C, all other options take 24 hrs.
 

blackstallion

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Bleach IE chlorine is the most deadly chemical you can put into your tank.
Its sole purpose it to kill bacteria and subsequently everything.

This is why we use RO/DI water with carbon and resins.
To make sure we compleatly remove it from the water sources and guarantee its 100% gone.

Clorine bleach will evaporate and gas off and leaves nothing behind, when it dries compleatly.
So what about dechlorinators, can I run bleach through the tank and all its components, drain, rinse, add fresh water and dechlorinator to speed up the process of neutralizing the chlorine?

I'm looking for an option that would take no longer than 12 hours max so I don't have to leave the fish in a bucket overnight (albeit with an airstone and heater so they would probably be fine for a 24 hr period anyway).
 

K7BMG

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I would say yes you can.

I would use this method but I would do it twice following the instructions on the product exactly.

But I would still try to dry everything as best as I could.
Use a hair dryer.
Do the sniff test. If you smell even a hint of bleach I would do it again.
 

JCTReefer

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What is benzalkonium chloride? Seems like between it or exposing to 40 °C, all other options take 24 hrs.
Benzalkonium chloride (BZK, BKC, BAK, BAC), also known as alkyldimethylbenzylammonium chloride (ADBAC) and by the trade name Zephiran,[1] is a type of cationic surfactant. It is an organic salt classified as a quaternary ammonium compound. ADBACs have three main categories of use: as a biocide, a cationic surfactant, and a phase transfer agent.[2] ADBACs are a mixture of alkylbenzyldimethylammonium chlorides, in which the alkyl group has various even-numbered alkyl chain lengths.
 

blackstallion

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As far as the copper, is it a good idea to first use media ie. poly filter, to remove the Cu and THEN go through bleach sterilization and vinegar sanitization? OR will the bleach and vinegar along with fresh water rinse get rid of the Cu? I guess there's also the option of running poly filter AFTER the tank has been sterilized and new SW introduced to rid any Cu traces...
 

JCTReefer

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As far as the copper, is it a good idea to first use media ie. poly filter, to remove the Cu and THEN go through bleach sterilization and vinegar sanitization? OR will the bleach and vinegar along with fresh water rinse get rid of the Cu? I guess there's also the option of running poly filter AFTER the tank has been sterilized and new SW introduced to rid any Cu traces...
I think you might be overthinking things a bit. Lol. It’s always good to ask questions if you’re not sure on something though! If your intentions are to sterilize the tank and get rid of the copper. Just drain the tank! 99.9% of copper will be gone. I wouldn’t waste time or money on a polyfilter. Even if you were in the process of quarantining a fish and needed to remove the copper post treatment I wouldn’t recommend a polyfilter. Takes to long to remove using them. I’d just do a 100% water change to remove copper quickly and effectively.
So if we’re talking about basic sterilization and copper removal.
Rinse/scrub the tank and equipment out with fresh water. Any residual copper will be eliminated. Then run some bleach water through it. Or vinegar. Or both! Rinse with fresh water and let dry. Bleach, rinse, rinse, dry, to remove bio-film. Vinegar, rinse, rinse, dry to precipitate any remaining copper into a harmless form. And if you are really concerned hydrogen peroxide, rinse, rinse, dry to completely dissolve any remaining carbon based materials in the tank. It will be completely sterile at this point. Glass, silicone, and plastic aren’t going to absorb enough copper to matter if any. Glass definitely not. Now, if we are talking about rock, that’s a different story. Just Clean all the equipment like was outlined above in earlier post. Simple and straightforward. And let everything dry thoroughly !!!!
 

blackstallion

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Related but somewhat separate topic, how does one go about transferring a fish from a medicated/QT tank to a sterile new environment WITHOUT cross contaminating?
 

JCTReefer

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Related but somewhat separate topic, how does one go about transferring a fish from a medicated/QT tank to a sterile new environment WITHOUT cross contaminating?
Two nets. Transfer fish to a medicated bucket at least 10 feet away with therapeutic levels of copper in it using first net. Test Copper to verif levels. Temp and specific gravity matched also. Then with the 2nd sterile net, Transfer fish from bucket to sterile quarantine at least 10 feet away from first quarantine tank. You could always do a rinse also in fresh saltwater after going from bucket to second Qt tank.
Here was how @HotRocks recommended transfer to second sterile Qt from 1st copper Qt. It took some digging, but I found it. It’s pretty much what I said. And that is where I got my info from. It’s just been a couple of my years since I read his post. I was going off memory.

He says “HotRocks, post: 5829165, member: 88738"]I use two buckets when I move fish from copper to a sterile tank. The first bucket is dosed with copper. So fish are netted from copper QT to copper bucket. Then I transfer them to a clean bucket with newly mixed water by hand. Then finally use a clean net to move them from the clean bucket to the sterile tank.
 
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blackstallion

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I think you might be overthinking things a bit. Lol. It’s always good to ask questions if you’re not sure on something though! If your intentions are to sterilize the tank and get rid of the copper. Just drain the tank! 99.9% of copper will be gone. I wouldn’t waste time or money on a polyfilter. Even if you were in the process of quarantining a fish and needed to remove the copper post treatment I wouldn’t recommend a polyfilter. Takes to long to remove using them. I’d just do a 100% water change to remove copper quickly and effectively.
So if we’re talking about basic sterilization and copper removal.
Rinse/scrub the tank and equipment out with fresh water. Any residual copper will be eliminated. Then run some bleach water through it. Or vinegar. Or both! Rinse with fresh water and let dry. Bleach, rinse, rinse, dry, to remove bio-film. Vinegar, rinse, rinse, dry to precipitate any remaining copper into a harmless form. And if you are really concerned hydrogen peroxide, rinse, rinse, dry to completely dissolve any remaining carbon based materials in the tank. It will be completely sterile at this point. Glass, silicone, and plastic aren’t going to absorb enough copper to matter if any. Glass definitely not. Now, if we are talking about rock, that’s a different story. Just Clean all the equipment like was outlined above in earlier post. Simple and straightforward. And let everything dry thoroughly !!!!
It just occurred to me, since the goal is to rid the sterile QT tank of any chlorine/bleach after sterilization with bleach, and since I will be in a time crunch, can a safe alternative to air drying (as a means to let any chlorine/bleach gas off) be to use fresh RO/DI water (perhaps even with some dechlorinator) to do the final rinse and ensure any chlorine/bleach is neutralized, or at a minimum, diluted to such a low level as to be insignificant?
 

JCTReefer

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It just occurred to me, since the goal is to rid the sterile QT tank of any chlorine/bleach after sterilization with bleach, and since I will be in a time crunch, can a safe alternative to air drying (as a means to let any chlorine/bleach gas off) be to use fresh RO/DI water (perhaps even with some dechlorinator) to do the final rinse and ensure any chlorine/bleach is neutralized, or at a minimum, diluted to such a low level as to be insignificant?
Sure, you can do that, but the air drying completely part is an important step to make sure nothing survives. Let me link you to a couple of post that’s trying to accomplish what your doing. https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/5264860/
 

JCTReefer

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It just occurred to me, since the goal is to rid the sterile QT tank of any chlorine/bleach after sterilization with bleach, and since I will be in a time crunch, can a safe alternative to air drying (as a means to let any chlorine/bleach gas off) be to use fresh RO/DI water (perhaps even with some dechlorinator) to do the final rinse and ensure any chlorine/bleach is neutralized, or at a minimum, diluted to such a low level as to be insignificant?
Read post 16-20 on the very first page of this thread. The two experts here give their opinions on trying to use a single quarantine and doing the Transfer like you’re wanting to do. I think it would be kind of a headache. I would just break down and get a second Qt tank. And all the equipment to go with it. Or just Qt for the full 30 days in copper. A second set up isn’t all that expensive. I spend more going out to eat on the weekend then the whole cost of a second Qt set up. Lol!!! It’s just sooooo much easier. No rushing required!
And you can know for a fact that the second Qt tank is sterile, cycled, and ready to go!!! No hassle of trying to break down a single tank. Sterilize everything, let dry, and reset up. I would be really stressed out trying to do it like you’re wanting to do. Haha!!! I even thought about trying to do it like your talking about, but decided to just purchase another qt set up. I know it’s a hassle buying two of everything, but worth it in my opinion!!!
 

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UPDATE: 04/28/2020 - Possible velvet survived even higher concentrations... continue reading.

I've had 4 batches of fish this year thus far, and I thought I'd report some findings and my new method. First of all, I've added a diatom filter to the quarantines to handle UNBELIEVABLY cloudy water. I use Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals, both were equally bad. I use DE and it's worked quite well.

My current method:
Copper 2.25-2.5 PPM for 14 days, metroplex concurrently. Testing with Hanna only. Feeding GC for the second week in this tank. I do not treat with prazipro unless I see evidence of flukes, I wait until the second 14 day period in the second sterile QT.

New quarantine for 14 days observation. I treat with prazi during this time, 1.25x recommended concentration 5-7 days apart. I feed GC and Focus mixed for the first week in here (14 days total) for internal parasites.

I don't use spectrogram or any other antibiotic unless needed. You can add it in either 14 day period if needed -- if you do, diatom filter won't be necessary, as spectogram usually doesn't allow for bacterial blooms I have been experiencing. It does, however, sometimes take its' toll on the beneficial bacteria, so watch your seachem ammonia alert badges and have biospira on ready.

Each batch I start fresh, dry out completely OR bleach in-between.

I've also switched to CP for batch 4 because I've had two failed Copper batches. Full disclosure -- I used 2.25-2.5PPM both times HOWEVER I have been sloppy and multi-tasking so it's possible both failed attempts were cross-contamination with food, hands in tanks, drain hoses, and a myriad of other ways. I am unsure if velvet survived copper or if it was user error. I do not think I cross-contaminated but I am often mindlessly working down there or distracted on the phone. I have also asked @Humblefish, who said he has had one other report similar, but otherwise we may be the only two.

I've moved to CP recently with good success so far. Fish seem happier, but we will see if it's effective or if I mess up again. CP is difficult to get right now, obviously, but I had a bit left over. I am still pretty confident in Copper Power at 2-2.5PPM, but it is POSSIBLE perhaps that velvet is surviving even higher concentrations of copper. I am unsure.

Because of my working from home, being a kindergarten teacher to my 6 year old daughter, a daycare for my 4 year old son, and a massive uptick in business for me with all of this coranavirus stuff, I am stretched very thin and when I try to multi-task (talk to clients while working in fish room) I have caught myself making silly errors I wouldn't under less pressure and under normal circumstances. In short, I am stretched very thin.

IF velvet HAS adapted to higher levels of copper, I don't think increasing the time in copper will help, and who knows if increasing copper would help. In theory it would. We suspect that the distribution system is using higher levels of copper which again, as we claimed 2 years ago or so COULD mean that velvet is adapting and can survive higher concentrations of copper. I've seen NO evidence of ich after any treatment.

@Humblefish and others will be experimenting further with hydrogren peroxide, which may show promise in the future. But for now, I'd continue course but DEFINITELY OBSERVE FOR 14 DAYS after treatment. It's been coming back within 3-5 days.

@HotRocks @Big G

@4FordFamily You recommend 1.25x recommended dose for Prazi ie. API GC. GC instructs 1 packet per 10g. So are you recommending 1.25 packets per 10g of API GC?
 

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Quick question for you guys. I currently have a blue tang and pintail wrasse in quarantine at 2.20 ppm copper power. I reached therapeutic level yesterday. I noticed possible ick (white grainy spots) on my blue tang yesterday. I was planning on 15 days of copper and transferring to clean QT. Would that be possible still or it's better to do the 30 day copper since the blue tang is showing sign of ich? thanks.
 
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blackstallion

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Is it advisable to keep a Tang in hypo-salinity 1.009 AND treat with Copper Power at the same time?

Reason I ask is I have a Yellow Tang coming in from an online vendor that states they will be shipping in 1.009 SG water.

I am adjusting my QT tank to 1.009 SG to make the acclimation as smooth as possible, but, should I pre-dose the hypo-salinity water with Cu to the 1ppm recommended to start 14 days of treatment OR should I first bring the SG levels up to a more normal level ie. 1.019 and THEN start Cu treatment?
 

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Is it advisable to keep a Tang in hypo-salinity 1.009 AND treat with Copper Power at the same time?

Reason I ask is I have a Yellow Tang coming in from an online vendor that states they will be shipping in 1.009 SG water.

I am adjusting my QT tank to 1.009 SG to make the acclimation as smooth as possible, but, should I pre-dose the hypo-salinity water with Cu to the 1ppm recommended to start 14 days of treatment OR should I first bring the SG levels up to a more normal level ie. 1.019 and THEN start Cu treatment?

Hyposalinity causes low pH which breaks
Copper into toxic levels. Off RC

Generally speaking, copper toxicity increases in lower salinity.
The toxicity of most metals such as cadmium, chromium, copper, mercury, nickel, and zinc was reported to increase with decreasing salinity. Per Humblefish
 

K7BMG

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Is it advisable to keep a Tang in hypo-salinity 1.009 AND treat with Copper Power at the same time?

Reason I ask is I have a Yellow Tang coming in from an online vendor that states they will be shipping in 1.009 SG water.

I am adjusting my QT tank to 1.009 SG to make the acclimation as smooth as possible, but, should I pre-dose the hypo-salinity water with Cu to the 1ppm recommended to start 14 days of treatment OR should I first bring the SG levels up to a more normal level ie. 1.019 and THEN start Cu treatment?


First thing to do is test the salinity of the shipping water do not trust what they say.
Many factors could play a harmful roll. Refractomiter calibration and everything.
Fish can easily handle a drop in salinity, but it takes time to go back up.

IME I wait and observe my fish, before I medicate.
The fish have went through enough stress so I like to let them settle down a bit.
I am of the school that feels medications are a good thing if needed.
I put the focus on the fish, not the parasite.
If I see signs of a parasite yes its time to treat, if none then why put the fish in harms way.
We cant say all fish can handle copper treatment, just as some people are allergic to medications individual fish are no different.
 

blackstallion

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First thing to do is test the salinity of the shipping water do not trust what they say.
Many factors could play a harmful roll. Refractomiter calibration and everything.
Fish can easily handle a drop in salinity, but it takes time to go back up.

IME I wait and observe my fish, before I medicate.
The fish have went through enough stress so I like to let them settle down a bit.
I am of the school that feels medications are a good thing if needed.
I put the focus on the fish, not the parasite.
If I see signs of a parasite yes its time to treat, if none then why put the fish in harms way.
We cant say all fish can handle copper treatment, just as some people are allergic to medications individual fish are no different.
Good call, the shipping water was at 1.012!
 

blackstallion

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In the guidance from @Humblefish for his original QT method, he states, after final treatment with Prazi ie. GC, Prazipro for flukes, observe the fish for an additional 14 day's in non medicated water.

In my case, I will be leaving the fish in there for another 5 or so weeks since my DTs fallow period goes into early November.

Do I need to do another WC or anything to go into the 14 day (in my case 5 week) observation period, or can I assume since the fish went through full therapeutic Cu (of which I sterilized the tank afterwards) and GC treatments that any parasites, worms or flukes are dead and the tank should be ok for that time period (other than preforming regular maintenance WCs)?
 

K7BMG

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In the guidance from @Humblefish for his original QT method, he states, after final treatment with Prazi ie. GC, Prazipro for flukes, observe the fish for an additional 14 day's in non medicated water.

In my case, I will be leaving the fish in there for another 5 or so weeks since my DTs fallow period goes into early November.

Do I need to do another WC or anything to go into the 14 day (in my case 5 week) observation period, or can I assume since the fish went through full therapeutic Cu (of which I sterilized the tank afterwards) and GC treatments that any parasites, worms or flukes are dead and the tank should be ok for that time period (other than preforming regular maintenance WCs)?

I might be wrong but once you stop medications and do regular maintenance water changes I think all is ok as the meds will fl

A lot of the medications have an effect on bacteria also.
So the potential for a rise in Ammonia is always a concern.
 

blackstallion

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During the Prazi ie. GC dosing period for flukes, is it common for fish to scratch themselves? I have seen my Purple and Sailfin occasionally scratching on the PVC pipes. Below are some pictures of the Purple. Mind you there are a lot of micro bubbles in the tank so I apologize but most if not all of those white spots you see on the fish are either on the glass or bubbles in the water.

They are still eating like pigs and basically active and swimming around.

20200928_133113.jpg
20200928_133307.jpg
20200928_133211.jpg
 

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