My Current QT Process

[blackstallion]

Here's the Sailfin. Is this normal during Prazi ie. GC dosing for flukes? Did my Cu treatment for 14 days fail? Is this Velvet? Brook? Something else?

Both the Purple and Sailfin are in the first week of Prazi treatment.

 

[blackstallion]

Update on my last post. Looks like from the symptoms, both the Sailfin and Purple now have Velvet. They went through a 14 day period of 2.25ppm therapeutic levels of Copper Power verified with an API Copper test kit.

I now have introduced Copper back into the QT at a 2.0ppm level and will plan on keeping there for 30 days. Below is what my API Copper test kit is showing (left column is control at 2.0ppm and right column is sample water from the tank; top row is vial resting on the color chart and the bottom row is vial about 1/2" up off the strip).

 

[dwest]

Update on my last post. Looks like from the symptoms, both the Sailfin and Purple now have Velvet. They went through a 14 day period of 2.25ppm therapeutic levels of Copper Power verified with an API Copper test kit.

I now have introduced Copper back into the QT at a 2.0ppm level and will plan on keeping there for 30 days. Below is what my API Copper test kit is showing (left column is control at 2.0ppm and right column is sample water from the tank; top row is vial resting on the color chart and the bottom row is vial about 1/2" up off the strip).

Sorry you are going through this. Those images bring back bad memories for me. I highly recommend getting the Hanna high range copper checker. If you get it, get another order of reagent packets.

 

[blackstallion]

Sorry you are going through this. Those images bring back bad memories for me. I highly recommend getting the Hanna high range copper checker. If you get it, get another order of reagent packets.

I just ordered one last night, although I did not get another pack of reagent. How many test's can be performed with the reagent it comes with?

 

[dwest]

I just ordered one last night, although I did not get another pack of reagent. How many test's can be performed with the reagent it comes with?

Good move. I don’t recall how many tests you will get but it’s something like 5. You will likely use the first couple just getting used to the unit. The original pack will get you started but I would order more. Good luck.

 

[EatFood]

UPDATE: 04/28/2020 - Possible velvet survived even higher concentrations... continue reading.

I've had 4 batches of fish this year thus far, and I thought I'd report some findings and my new method. First of all, I've added a diatom filter to the quarantines to handle UNBELIEVABLY cloudy water. I use Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals, both were equally bad. I use DE and it's worked quite well.

My current method:
Copper 2.25-2.5 PPM for 14 days, metroplex concurrently. Testing with Hanna only. Feeding GC for the second week in this tank. I do not treat with prazipro unless I see evidence of flukes, I wait until the second 14 day period in the second sterile QT.

New quarantine for 14 days observation. I treat with prazi during this time, 1.25x recommended concentration 5-7 days apart. I feed GC and Focus mixed for the first week in here (14 days total) for internal parasites.

I don't use spectrogram or any other antibiotic unless needed. You can add it in either 14 day period if needed -- if you do, diatom filter won't be necessary, as spectogram usually doesn't allow for bacterial blooms I have been experiencing. It does, however, sometimes take its' toll on the beneficial bacteria, so watch your seachem ammonia alert badges and have biospira on ready.

Each batch I start fresh, dry out completely OR bleach in-between.

I've also switched to CP for batch 4 because I've had two failed Copper batches. Full disclosure -- I used 2.25-2.5PPM both times HOWEVER I have been sloppy and multi-tasking so it's possible both failed attempts were cross-contamination with food, hands in tanks, drain hoses, and a myriad of other ways. I am unsure if velvet survived copper or if it was user error. I do not think I cross-contaminated but I am often mindlessly working down there or distracted on the phone. I have also asked @Humblefish, who said he has had one other report similar, but otherwise we may be the only two.

I've moved to CP recently with good success so far. Fish seem happier, but we will see if it's effective or if I mess up again. CP is difficult to get right now, obviously, but I had a bit left over. I am still pretty confident in Copper Power at 2-2.5PPM, but it is POSSIBLE perhaps that velvet is surviving even higher concentrations of copper. I am unsure.

Because of my working from home, being a kindergarten teacher to my 6 year old daughter, a daycare for my 4 year old son, and a massive uptick in business for me with all of this coranavirus stuff, I am stretched very thin and when I try to multi-task (talk to clients while working in fish room) I have caught myself making silly errors I wouldn't under less pressure and under normal circumstances. In short, I am stretched very thin.

IF velvet HAS adapted to higher levels of copper, I don't think increasing the time in copper will help, and who knows if increasing copper would help. In theory it would. We suspect that the distribution system is using higher levels of copper which again, as we claimed 2 years ago or so COULD mean that velvet is adapting and can survive higher concentrations of copper. I've seen NO evidence of ich after any treatment.

@Humblefish and others will be experimenting further with hydrogren peroxide, which may show promise in the future. But for now, I'd continue course but DEFINITELY OBSERVE FOR 14 DAYS after treatment. It's been coming back within 3-5 days.

@HotRocks @Big G

After 14 days in copper how do you transfer fish to new sterile QT without cross-contaminated? do you just catch the fish and plop him into the new sterile QT?

 

[Idoc]

After 14 days in copper how do you transfer fish to new sterile QT without cross-contaminated? do you just catch the fish and plop him into the new sterile QT?

There is always some risk with cross-contamination, but you can minimize the risk greatly. I have my second quarantine tank ready to go with matching salinity and temperature. Then I take a small container of the new saltwater and quickly move the fish into that small container for a quick "rinse" then remove the fish from that container and then directly into the new quarantine tank water.

 

[JCTReefer]

After 14 days in copper how do you transfer fish to new sterile QT without cross-contaminated? do you just catch the fish and plop him into the new sterile QT?

Here was how @HotRocks recommended transfer to second sterile Qt from 1st copper Qt.

He says “HotRocks, post: 5829165, member: 88738"]I use two buckets when I move fish from copper to a sterile tank. The first bucket is dosed with copper. So fish are netted from copper QT to copper bucket. Then I transfer them to a clean bucket with newly mixed water by hand. Then finally use a clean net to move them from the clean bucket to the sterile tank.

 

[4FordFamily]

After 14 days in copper how do you transfer fish to new sterile QT without cross-contaminated? do you just catch the fish and plop him into the new sterile QT?

Great question, and the post below is how I accomplish this!

There is always some risk with cross-contamination, but you can minimize the risk greatly. I have my second quarantine tank ready to go with matching salinity and temperature. Then I take a small container of the new saltwater and quickly move the fish into that small container for a quick "rinse" then remove the fish from that container and then directly into the new quarantine tank water.

 

[JayPnoy12]

I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

On arrival day, I match salinity in QT to arriving fish or make sure it's a touch lower (Usually 1.018).

Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

Dosage for food soaked meds:
Add 1 scoop of GC (scoop that comes with focus) + 1 scoop focus per 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food. I add selcon + a touch of garlic to help dissolve the meds.
*You can also use Metroplex in place of general cure, it does however only treat for intestinal parasites instead of intestinal parasites + worms*. This food can be refrigerated once medicated. Is for 3-5 days, toss and make new.

Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 2.0PPM. increasing the level .25ppm per day or several small doses (the time is less important than the small increments). I do this by dosing half of the daily increase in the am and the other half in the pm.

At this point I am watching very closely for external symptoms of bacterial infections. If one arises or a fish prone to infection stops eating then I dose Spectogram (Kanamycin+Nitrofurazone) and continue throughout copper. You can also use Kanaplex+furan-2. The WCs are fun maintaining the therapeutic Cu level. But once you have the hang of it, it's not bad. Copper has to be pre-dosed into new SW prior to adding to tank to keep Cu level from dropping below therapeutic.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Also, If you are combining ABX + Copper you need heavy agitation at the surface of the water. This can be best achieved by running a powerhead aimed upward at the surface. I also run air stone and HOB filter. The combination of these meds will deplete the water column of oxygen at a heavy rate so you have to compensate.

Keep in mind ABX are slow to work on fish. They are likely to be even slower in the presence of copper due to the weakened immune system. So the Spectogram IME has always prevented infection from worsening. Some have healed. I do also keep Sulfaplex and Neoplex handy for certain types of infections. They are safe to use with copper.

After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.

After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.

Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.

14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

This is a very aggressive approach. I can tell you though I have improved my success rate significantly since adapting to this method. It is not bulletproof. The bottom line is you may have to changeup in the middle of the process due to unforeseen circumstances.

After the Hanna checker discovery I was getting fish through copper without much issue, but using the same tank and treating for 30 days I was losing fish in the 20-30 day range to bacterial infection. So now using multiple tanks and reducing the copper exposure time along with having the proper ABX to be used with/without copper it is what worked best for me. We are still working on tweaking it a bit. Most of this system was designed/adapted with much help of @Humblefish + @4FordFamily. To keep up with the unfortunate condition we have recently been receiving it may have to be altered as time passes.

I also preform FW dips if I see a fish scratching in copper (After 7 days at the therapeutic level) to check for flukes and/or provide temporary relief. If a fish arrives with velvet/velvet symptoms they get a FW dip as well as a 90 min Ruby Reef rally bath per @Humblefish's normal protocol.

Fish with suspected ammonia burn would receive a 30 min bath in Methalyne Blue.

My Personal Medication list:
Copper Power
API General Cure
NFG http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html
Spectrogram http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram
Kanaplex
Metroplex
Neoplex
Sulfaplex
Furan-2
Methalyne Blue
Ruby Reef Rally
Formalin

This is a very helpful link by @Humblefish regarding fish meds:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medications-to-keep-on-hand.213574/

Couple other great links regarding QT:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/

UPDATE: We have discovered at least one strain of velvet that survives 1.75 PPM copper, we recommend increasing to 2.0PPM to eradicate it.

UPDATE 2 4/28/2020 - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/post-7398921

Hi @HotRocks Great forum and conversation about QT process. I was reading the thread and I've learn a of info how to QT fish. I have been in hobby for a while. When I start saltwater I start with FOWLR. During that time I experience fish death such as Ich, cloudy eyes and other fishes disease. Before back then I was not aware of QT fish because during that time I was learning how to do saltwater I was buying fish acclimating it, then straight to DT. I was frustrated at that time cause I don't have knowledge on how to QT works so I stop saltwater since then. Now that I'm going back to reefing because I love to have a beautiful piece of ocean back at the house. This time taking my time. I'm researching and reading stuff online and forum. I'm also doing a lot of research and aspect of how to maintain Reef before I start building one again. I came across to this article about QT process which give strength and knowledge how to do it as this is my first time doing QT and afraid to start it. I was afraid cause I know and learn that copper can kill your fish if you use them incorrectly. Now that I read your post and other post from 4FordFamily, and Humblefish I want to start and try it. Specially that you have different tank set-up that you are testing to make the QT streaming line. My question that I want to get it clear is when you have the copper power and you have it on therapeutic level for 14 days, when do you add the API General Cure or the Prazipro in the water to treat external? Do you add it while there in the therapeutic process or add them after you place the fish into the 2nd sterile QT? I hope this question make sense to you. I'm new to this QT stuff. I hope I can ask more question as I'm learn and preparing for my set-up.

As always thank you,

Jay

 

[GGonzo]

This mirrors my experience as well.

Keep us posted!

I should probably edit my original post to include that I always have life foods on hand for picky eaters. Also that areation is key when using ABX + Copper as it's critical to keep enough oxygen in the water with all of the meds combined. Also a lower QT temp 76-78 degrees helps with this as well.

Would black worms work too? I have access to them. Would you just put them into the tank or treat them with meds, would that kill the worms?

 

[salty joe]

I've read black worms die almost immediatly when placed in salt water. I know white worms live all day in salt water. They are easy to culture too.

 

[Billldg]

Hi @HotRocks Great forum and conversation about QT process. I was reading the thread and I've learn a of info how to QT fish. I have been in hobby for a while. When I start saltwater I start with FOWLR. During that time I experience fish death such as Ich, cloudy eyes and other fishes disease. Before back then I was not aware of QT fish because during that time I was learning how to do saltwater I was buying fish acclimating it, then straight to DT. I was frustrated at that time cause I don't have knowledge on how to QT works so I stop saltwater since then. Now that I'm going back to reefing because I love to have a beautiful piece of ocean back at the house. This time taking my time. I'm researching and reading stuff online and forum. I'm also doing a lot of research and aspect of how to maintain Reef before I start building one again. I came across to this article about QT process which give strength and knowledge how to do it as this is my first time doing QT and afraid to start it. I was afraid cause I know and learn that copper can kill your fish if you use them incorrectly. Now that I read your post and other post from 4FordFamily, and Humblefish I want to start and try it. Specially that you have different tank set-up that you are testing to make the QT streaming line. My question that I want to get it clear is when you have the copper power and you have it on therapeutic level for 14 days, when do you add the API General Cure or the Prazipro in the water to treat external? Do you add it while there in the therapeutic process or add them after you place the fish into the 2nd sterile QT? I hope this question make sense to you. I'm new to this QT stuff. I hope I can ask more question as I'm learn and preparing for my set-up.

As always thank you,

Jay

You add the GC or Prazi after you move the fish to the 2nd QT tank. Using Prazi in a copper tank can be hazardous to your fish. Don’t be intimidated, it sounds more complicated than it really is. The 2nd QT tank does 2 things. First, you can add the GC or Prazi immediately after putting the fish in the 2nd QT tank without worry which also speeds the whole process up greatly, and second, it is needed to make sure anything that has fallen off the fish during the first 14 days doesn’t get back onto the fish.

 

[Lucidbeam]

Need some help. Looks like my Purple Tang has ich in the second QT tank. I did doses of GC and then added carbon. I noticed the ich after that. Here is a post to see fish. I have three fish in my first QT tank with Copper at 2.0 set to move to second QT on 7-15-22. How do I handle this.

Here is what I'm thinking. If there is a better way let me know.
First the Purple Tang with ich. Can I leave him in second QT tank pull carbon and start dosing Copper to 2.2? If yes then I would:
Buy a third QT setup. Cycle it with water for main tank.
Should I leave the second batch of fish in the first QT with copper more than 14 days? Move second batch of fish from first QT to third QT and dose GC and watch.
Take down first QT and sterilize it.
Once second batch of fish are ready for main tank I would them move the Purple tang to third QT tank.

I'm glad I caught it, but not sure how to fix. Thanks for the help.

 

[MnFish1]

Need some help. Looks like my Purple Tang has ich in the second QT tank. I did doses of GC and then added carbon. I noticed the ich after that. Here is a post to see fish. I have three fish in my first QT tank with Copper at 2.0 set to move to second QT on 7-15-22. How do I handle this.

Here is what I'm thinking. If there is a better way let me know.
First the Purple Tang with ich. Can I leave him in second QT tank pull carbon and start dosing Copper to 2.2? If yes then I would:
Buy a third QT setup. Cycle it with water for main tank.
Should I leave the second batch of fish in the first QT with copper more than 14 days? Move second batch of fish from first QT to third QT and dose GC and watch.
Take down first QT and sterilize it.
Once second batch of fish are ready for main tank I would them move the Purple tang to third QT tank.

I'm glad I caught it, but not sure how to fix. Thanks for the help.

Suggest you start a new thread - and use the link at the bottom of my signature to answer the questions