My Dino Defeat Plan

[EnterName]

Maybe you can start a new thread gathering the most important information and the admins can pin the new thread instead. This would also clean up the comment section.

I would also offer the dinoflagellate images posted by me from my microscopy thread if you can make use of them.

That's a great thread! I'd love to see some slides of some beneficial bacteria from a well established, healthy sand bed too. It'd be interesting to compare that to a dino dominated one.

Thank you, I'm hoping to find the time to collect more images soon. You are welcome to post your microsopy images if you feel like they might contribute :)

Unfortunately most bacteria are too small to see with light microscopy (even at 1000x magnification they are usually just small dots or rods). There are a few exceptions, but I've not seen bacteria of significant size in reef tanks yet. The commonly found cyanobacteria are only visible because they connect to form larger structures that look like thin hairs made out of smaller segments.

However, I will be able to provide images and videos of things that are commonly found in the sand bed (e.g. ciliates, nematodes, diatoms, etc.). In fact: Most images on the thread were taken from sand or detritus samples.

 

[taylormaximus]

Thank you, I'm hoping to find the time to collect more images soon. You are welcome to post your microsopy images if you feel like they might contribute :)

Unfortunately most bacteria are too small to see with light microscopy (even at 1000x magnification they are usually just small dots or rods). There are a few exceptions, but I've not seen bacteria of significant size in reef tanks yet. The commonly found cyanobacteria are only visible because they connect to form larger structures that look like thin hairs made out of smaller segments.

However, I will be able to provide images and videos of things that are commonly found in the sand bed (e.g. ciliates, nematodes, diatoms, etc.). In fact: Most images already were taken from sand or detritus samples.

Oh really I didn't realize that! I suppose it could be difficult to distinguish a healthy sand bed from an unhealthy one then, minus the obvious absence of dinos. Maybe that's why there isn't much information about that around.

 

[mcarroll]

Maybe you can start a new thread gathering the most important information and the admins can pin the new thread instead. This would also clean up the comment section.

I would also offer the dinoflagellate images posted by me from my microscopy thread if you can make use of them.

Thankfully, 90%+ of the necessary information is already on the first post.... in most cases that's all you need to read to make use of the thread. The comments are just if you need more help.

 

[Aquacrazed]

That's no good!

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?​

Most dino's we get have the same core causes, so make sure you've got all the basics covered that I lay out in the first post. Your type does tend to require special treatment, but again make sure you have the basics locked down first.

ScottB and Taricha have also made some supplements to that thread you want to look at, especially for the dino's you have.....look for their articles/PDF's in the article or under their user accounts. They are also linked in the thread near the end (page 633 or after I think).

(Wish I could still edit my thread so both of those items could be linked on the main page. Pretty lame not being able to.)

This is a great post, I remember reading it during my time in the battlefield.

 

[Aquacrazed]

For silicates, I first started using Sponge Excel but that is waaay overpriced sodium silicate. Get this instead: Amazon product

 

[Patx]

So I've been fighting sandbed Dinos (large cell amphidinium) for over 2 years now, and have tried just about every method in the book with little to no success. I think I came up with a solution that should work in theory though, but I wanted to make this post to run it past any experts and see if my reasoning is sound, and get tips that will aid success.

The overall plan isn't revolutionary, it's simply to gradually remove the sand and keep it in the dark and keep adding competitive bacteria to outcompete the dinos, and then eventually reintroduce the sand.

So I'm looking for advice on specifics to get the highest chance of success. I'm considering adding new live sand either directly to the tank, or into the container with the removed sand to get it colonized with bacteria first. I don't want to just add more free real estate for the dinos to take over again. I'm also looking for advice on what temperature to keep the sand at, and what parameters I should target with nitrates/phosphates. I currently I have it just at room temperature with an air bubbler, and I'm aiming for 20 ppm nitrate and 0.15 ppm phosphate. And I'm looking for suggestions on bacteria to add, currently I have a live form of Rhodopseudomonas palustris, live Isochrysis phytoplankton, as well as Microbacter 7, Microbacter Clean, and ammonium chloride. I'd like to add copepods as well. But I'm wondering what else I should add to increase biodiversity. I'd also like to know roughly how long I should keep the sand out of the tank before reintroducing it.

So if anyone has any advice on bacteria or parameters to get the best dino resistant sand bed, please let me know! Or any other general tips for success, advice for any of these categories would be helpful. Thanks so much!

your idea is very similar!

what works for me...

Siphon the sand from where the dino's are at their worst (end of the day) into a filter sock.

Retrieve this sand and rinse it thoroughly with hot water
(then with reverse osmosis water if you like).

Place this sand in a mesh sock or bag in a dark area of the sump for 1-2 weeks.
(I add "Life Source" to this sand; maybe that helps).

When it's time for the next vacuum, I replace the removed sand with the sand from the sump.

Repeat, repeat and repeat!

The goal is simple: remove as many dinos as possible and introduce already colonized sand to the strategic location.

I also have a UV sterilizer on the return line (at night).

 

[taylormaximus]

your idea is very similar!

what works for me...

Siphon the sand from where the dino's are at their worst (end of the day) into a filter sock.

Retrieve this sand and rinse it thoroughly with hot water
(then with reverse osmosis water if you like).

Place this sand in a mesh sock or bag in a dark area of the sump for 1-2 weeks.
(I add "Life Source" to this sand; maybe that helps).

When it's time for the next vacuum, I replace the removed sand with the sand from the sump.

Repeat, repeat and repeat!

The goal is simple: remove as many dinos as possible and introduce already colonized sand to the strategic location.

I also have a UV sterilizer on the return line (at night).

Yeah that sounds like that's roughly the same idea as I'm starting to do in my system, except I'm not putting any of the sand back until I'm certain it's well seeded which stuff more noble than dinos. Not sure if the way we return the colonized sand back to the system will make a difference with results.

I also wasn't planning on sterilizing the sand before reseeding it, the logic being that the darkness itself will eventually kill off the dinos after a few weeks, but not sure if that's foolish reasoning. I just don't want to kill off anything potentially good that is already in the sand.

Did you have any resurgence of LCA after that process was done?

 

[Patx]

I have fewer and fewer of them. To almost none at all.
At first, I put colonized sand every week, then every two weeks... three... four...

then I increased my PAR levels...

It came back "a little," I redid it two or three times.
I always have a mesh sock of sand in my sump for reinforcement.

The dinoflagellates don't establish themselves without light.
The bacteria from the tank colonize the sand without competition in the sump and are more numerous when introduced.

Nothing scientifically proven, just my reasoning and good results.
It's a shame that no LiveRock is available in Canada.

 

[Aquacrazed]

Attached is the 'holy grail' for beating dinos. It's from the Mack's reef dino support group (facebook).
You will notice that most people that give you advice on beating dinos have no idea what strain they have. They do random things, throw the kitchen sink at the problem and somehow they get lucky when the right combination lines up and the dinos are gone. This is what I did the first time around, don't make that mistake, it took me well over 6 months to get rid a strain that would have taken me a month if I identified and targeted the strain. You have already identified your strain which is the most important step. Best of luck.

 

[skyrne_isk]

You can do both. I would chuck the old sand though. I would add lifesource at the night after you replace the sand.

One thing I noticed you aren't utilizing is silicates for diatoms. Diatoms can easily overwhelm dinos since they reproduce with and without light. I stop cleaning the glass and let the diatoms grow out on the glass and surfaces until dinos are gone.

100% this. Dose silicate. Wait for diatoms, watch dinos fade away.

 

[taylormaximus]

Attached is the 'holy grail' for beating dinos. It's from the Mack's reef dino support group (facebook).
You will notice that most people that give you advice on beating dinos have no idea what strain they have. They do random things, throw the kitchen sink at the problem and somehow they get lucky when the right combination lines up and the dinos are gone. This is what I did the first time around, don't make that mistake, it took me well over 6 months to get rid a strain that would have taken me a month if I identified and targeted the strain. You have already identified your strain which is the most important step. Best of luck.

Thanks! I'm actually already following that group, but I didn't have that resource, that's great. Sounds like silicates are really the way to go, but I think this time I'm going to try dosing silicates and bacteria to the sand outside the tank and then add it back once the diatoms are well colonized.

 

[Ziggy17]

What were you testing the Si with? I dosed my Si to 8ppm and got a great diatom bloom. You can’t overdose it. Your urchin likely died from eating Dino’s and not the Si dosing.

 

[taylormaximus]

What were you testing the Si with? I dosed my Si to 8ppm and got a great diatom bloom. You can’t overdose it. Your urchin likely died from eating Dino’s and not the Si dosing.

I was using the API test kit, which at the peak I read 6ppm. I can't say for certain the cause, but that particular urchin I added less than 2 days earlier, and it never touched the sand bed. I linked it to the silicates because I had two other urchins in the tank that also died very shortly after dosing the silicates, and they had been thriving up to that point, and all other parameters were normal. Sadly I didn't see a speck of diatoms after all that. I'm open to trying again though especially since I don't have any urchins in the system now.

 

[Ziggy17]

I was using the API test kit, which at the peak I read 6ppm. I can't say for certain the cause, but that particular urchin I added less than 2 days earlier, and it never touched the sand bed. I linked it to the silicates because I had two other urchins in the tank that also died very shortly after dosing the silicates, and they had been thriving up to that point, and all other parameters were normal. Sadly I didn't see a speck of diatoms after all that. I'm open to trying again though especially since I don't have any urchins in the system now.

I used the Columbia kit, was pretty spot on. I kept dozing until I saw diatoms, then tested and it was at 8. I tried playing the dose to get it between 3-5 game but it wasn’t happening, so I went with more of a sledgehammer approach, which worked out better for me.

You want to get a sample from your rock work and look at it under the scope. You may have a secondary ostreopsis going on that killed the urchins. I lost my whole CUC from LCA so even though they are less toxic, it wiped out 30+ snails.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Thanks! I'm actually already following that group, but I didn't have that resource, that's great. Sounds like silicates are really the way to go, but I think this time I'm going to try dosing silicates and bacteria to the sand outside the tank and then add it back once the diatoms are well colonized.

https://a.co/d/eH7syv3

Randy has a dosing regime around here somewhere. I never tested, just aim for the low end of dose recommendation, pretty hard to mess up.