My Dino Defeat Plan

[taylormaximus]

So I've been fighting sandbed Dinos (large cell amphidinium) for over 2 years now, and have tried just about every method in the book with little to no success. I think I came up with a solution that should work in theory though, but I wanted to make this post to run it past any experts and see if my reasoning is sound, and get tips that will aid success.

The overall plan isn't revolutionary, it's simply to gradually remove the sand and keep it in the dark and keep adding competitive bacteria to outcompete the dinos, and then eventually reintroduce the sand.

So I'm looking for advice on specifics to get the highest chance of success. I'm considering adding new live sand either directly to the tank, or into the container with the removed sand to get it colonized with bacteria first. I don't want to just add more free real estate for the dinos to take over again. I'm also looking for advice on what temperature to keep the sand at, and what parameters I should target with nitrates/phosphates. I currently I have it just at room temperature with an air bubbler, and I'm aiming for 20 ppm nitrate and 0.15 ppm phosphate. And I'm looking for suggestions on bacteria to add, currently I have a live form of Rhodopseudomonas palustris, live Isochrysis phytoplankton, as well as Microbacter 7, Microbacter Clean, and ammonium chloride. I'd like to add copepods as well. But I'm wondering what else I should add to increase biodiversity. I'd also like to know roughly how long I should keep the sand out of the tank before reintroducing it.

So if anyone has any advice on bacteria or parameters to get the best dino resistant sand bed, please let me know! Or any other general tips for success, advice for any of these categories would be helpful. Thanks so much!

 

[bubbgee]

Aquaforest Life Source worked for me, although you'd have to deal with some iron ferrites before dosing (just use a magnet). Temperature-wise, keep it under 79F. I didn't have much success with higher temperatures.
I've seen posts of success using this UV Wand for sandbed and rocks. Since you are replacing the sand, you could zap the sand on a schedule to prevent any new dinos from popping up

 

[taylormaximus]

Aquaforest Life Source worked for me, although you'd have to deal with some iron ferrites before dosing (just use a magnet). Temperature-wise, keep it under 79F. I didn't have much success with higher temperatures.
I've seen posts of success using this UV Wand for sandbed and rocks. Since you are replacing the sand, you could zap the sand on a schedule to prevent any new dinos from popping up

Ah yes I was looking into AFLS and I want to get it, but it's been hard to track down. I'm in Canada and my LFS doesn't carry it and it seems to be quite expensive to ship. But if I can get ahold of it would you recommend adding it to the removed sand or direct to the tank (or both)?
And I actually have that UV wand. It does work quite well with Dinos that come up, but they're only gone for about a day and then they come right back. But it's still a great tool in the tool belt.

 

[bubbgee]

Ah yes I was looking into AFLS and I want to get it, but it's been hard to track down. I'm in Canada and my LFS doesn't carry it and it seems to be quite expensive to ship. But if I can get ahold of it would you recommend adding it to the removed sand or direct to the tank (or both)?
And I actually have that UV wand. It does work quite well with Dinos that come up, but they're only gone for about a day and then they come right back. But it's still a great tool in the tool belt.

You can do both. I would chuck the old sand though. I would add lifesource at the night after you replace the sand.

One thing I noticed you aren't utilizing is silicates for diatoms. Diatoms can easily overwhelm dinos since they reproduce with and without light. I stop cleaning the glass and let the diatoms grow out on the glass and surfaces until dinos are gone.

 

[taylormaximus]

You can do both. I would chuck the old sand though. I would add lifesource at the night after you replace the sand.

One thing I noticed you aren't utilizing is silicates for diatoms. Diatoms can easily overwhelm dinos since they reproduce with and without light. I stop cleaning the glass and let the diatoms grow out on the glass and surfaces until dinos are gone.

Would new sand encourage dino growth since it isn't as well established as the old sand?

I've also tried silicate dosing up to like 5 ppm, which is too much, but I got absolutely no diatoms even after months, and I had a heck of a time getting the silicates out of the water. It also killed all my tuxedo urchins pretty much over night, so I didn't have a very good experience with it.

 

[EnterName]

Would new sand encourage dino growth since it isn't as well established as the old sand?

I've also tried silicate dosing up to like 5 ppm, which is too much, but I got absolutely no diatoms even after months, and I had a heck of a time getting the silicates out of the water. It also killed all my tuxedo urchins pretty much over night, so I didn't have a very good experience with it.

Beat me to it, I was just about to suggest silicate dosing.
I assume you verified with a microscope that there are no diatoms but dinoflagellates. It's really odd having that high silicates but no diatoms. I know that certain dinoflagellates can eat diatoms but it's a rather slow process afaik and I don't think it would be fast enough to get rid of all diatoms before you can see them. Did you use some algaecide? Maybe it is still preventing diatom growth or there is some lack of trace elements that are required for algae to thrive, but I would think all other organisms would be affected before diatoms have trouble to establish.

 

[bubbgee]

Would new sand encourage dino growth since it isn't as well established as the old sand?

I've also tried silicate dosing up to like 5 ppm, which is too much, but I got absolutely no diatoms even after months, and I had a heck of a time getting the silicates out of the water. It also killed all my tuxedo urchins pretty much over night, so I didn't have a very good experience with it.

Which silicates did you use? I used Sponge-xcel without any issues.

You could remove the sand first and wait a week or so to ensure that the dinos die off since they have nowhere to go except the water column. Then place the fresh sand later on once you see no presence of dinos in the water.

 

[taylormaximus]

Which silicates did you use? I used Sponge-xcel without any issues.

You could remove the sand first and wait a week or so to ensure that the dinos die off since they have nowhere to go except the water column. Then place the fresh sand later on once you see no presence of dinos in the water.

I used pure 40% sodium silicate, diluted into a solution and dripped into the tank.

That seems like a good idea. I'm not sure how long LCA can live in a sandbed without any light, but I do have access to a microscope so I could screen any sand I add back to make sure it's dino free. But if I could get my hands on life source I think that'd be a game changer!

 

[MikeReefs]

I outcompeted Small Cell using Af lifesource, mb7/MicrobLift special blend bacteria, silicates. I think the silicates sped it up but I believe I coulda did without. What followed was a huge green hair algea outbreak

 

[taylormaximus]

Beat me to it, I was just about to suggest silicate dosing.
I assume you verified with a microscope that there are no diatoms but dinoflagellates. It's really odd having that high silicates but no diatoms. I know that certain dinoflagellates can eat diatoms but it's a rather slow process afaik and I don't think it would be fast enough to get rid of all diatoms before you can see them. Did you use some algaecide? Maybe it is still preventing diatom growth or there is some lack of trace elements that are required for algae to thrive, but I would think all other organisms would be affected before diatoms have trouble to establish.

I was pretty surprised as well. I've looked at the sand bed under a microscope and it was 100% dinos, my theory is that they smothered all other biodiversity in the sand including diatoms (if such a thing is possible), to the point that they're essentially extinct in the system. But that's also odd because the dinos aren't THAT bad visually, just a brown coating that's there during the day and completely gone at night. I haven't done anything with algecides or anything drastic really. Dinos don't play fair though.

 

[MikeReefs]

I was pretty surprised as well. I've looked at the sand bed under a microscope and it was 100% dinos, my theory is that they smothered all other biodiversity in the sand including diatoms (if such a thing is possible), to the point that they're essentially extinct in the system. But that's also odd because the dinos aren't THAT bad visually, just a brown coating that's there during the day and completely gone at night. I haven't done anything with algecides or anything drastic really. Dinos don't play fair though.

The thing is diatoms vastly outcompete dinos because they reproduce at a way faster rate. If silicates are available in the water they will outcompete the dinos. Keep nutrients from bottoming and add bio diversity. You will outcompete them

 

[Aquacrazed]

I just won a 4 month battle with amphidinium. What worked for me was a combination approach that basically boosts diversity in the tank. Keep nitrates and phosphate high at all times, every time one of these bottomed it started coming back rapidly. Silicates and live phyto dosing. Low doses on mb7 (make sure you don’t bottom out nitrates), no UV, no water changes. Essentially you gotta let your tank rot. Lost my holy grail and 24k blue tip torches. All my monties started to bleach, managed to save them by dosing alk.

Maybe this is just a coincidence but the moment I saw spaghetti worms in my sandbed, I saw no dinos. My previous tank never had dinos but it always had bristle worms. This tank has had dinos 3 times in the last 5 years since it was setup. So maybe there is a connection, I don’t know.
Early this year I had ostreopsis, this was easy, just stick a big UV in your display, no water changes and it’s gone in a month.

 

[taylormaximus]

I just won a 4 month battle with amphidinium. What worked for me was a combination approach that basically boosts diversity in the tank. Keep nitrates and phosphate high at all times, every time one of these bottomed it started coming back rapidly. Silicates and live phyto dosing. Low doses on mb7 (make sure you don’t bottom out nitrates), no UV, no water changes. Essentially you gotta let your tank rot. Lost my holy grail and 24k blue tip torches. All my monties started to bleach, managed to save them by dosing alk.

Maybe this is just a coincidence but the moment I saw spaghetti worms in my sandbed, I saw no dinos. My previous tank never had dinos but it always had bristle worms. This tank has had dinos 3 times in the last 5 years since it was setup. So maybe there is a connection, I don’t know.
Early this year I had ostreopsis, this was easy, just stick a big UV in your display, no water changes and it’s gone in a month.

Congrats on your victory! Would you recommend siphoning the sand bed to remove surface dinos? That's the only water change I'm doing but I'll also dose nitrate and phosphate to keep both high. Do you know what those parameters were in your system once you beat them? And no UV? I understood that was worth doing, I have a UV sandbed sweeper that does kick back the dinos temporarily.

 

[Aquacrazed]

Congrats on your victory! Would you recommend siphoning the sand bed to remove surface dinos? That's the only water change I'm doing but I'll also dose nitrate and phosphate to keep both high. Do you know what those parameters were in your system once you beat them? And no UV? I understood that was worth doing, I have a UV sandbed sweeper that does kick back the dinos temporarily.

Do not siphon the sand bed, do not disturb it. When you siphon the sandbed you are sucking out all the dino competing organisms also like diatoms etc. You will notice the dinos come back swinging after you clean your sandbed, it's because they have no competition, you wiped them out. I was trying to keep nitrates above 20ppm (was dosing Neonitro), I had no problem keeping phosphates high because I was overfeeding the tank, they were like 1ppm at one time (yeah , not .1, ONE). Corals don't die because of high phosphates, their growth stagnates and color fades. I could have beaten them in may be 2-3 months but my Nitrates bottomed out twice and I got set back a bit. You can run UV (if you are worried about your fish) but it will lengthen the time to beat them. UV negates the establishment of diversity in the tank. I only stopped it about a month before the dinos disappeared. Your UV sandbed sweeper is also killing the diatoms etc. that's competing with your dinos. That product might work for ostreopsis but not a good solution for amphidinium.

Amphidinium is going to test your patiance. It's a good indicator if this hobby is for you or not. Believe me there were times I felt like leaving the hobby for good.

 

[taylormaximus]

Do not siphon the sand bed, do not disturb it. When you siphon the sandbed you are sucking out all the dino competing organisms also like diatoms etc. You will notice the dinos come back swinging after you clean your sandbed, it's because they have no competition, you wiped them out. I was trying to keep nitrates above 20ppm (was dosing Neonitro), I had no problem keeping phosphates high because I was overfeeding the tank, they were like 1ppm at one time (yeah , not .1, ONE). Corals don't die because of high phosphates, their growth stagnates and color fades. I could have beaten them in may be 2-3 months but my Nitrates bottomed out twice and I got set back a bit. You can run UV (if you are worried about your fish) but it will lengthen the time to beat them. UV negates the establishment of diversity in the tank. I only stopped it about a month before the dinos disappeared. Your UV sandbed sweeper is also killing the diatoms etc. that's competing with your dinos. That product might work for ostreopsis but not a good solution for amphidinium.

Amphidinium is going to test your patiance. It's a good indicator if this hobby is for you or not. Believe me there were times I felt like leaving the hobby for good.

I think that logic makes sense once you do have some competition starting to show up since UV kills everything, but did you have anything else you dosed to get you to that point where you had more biodiversity show up?

Also as a follow up, I'm curious, have you had any resurgence of dinos since beating them? I've never really been clear on what exactly "beating them" means, should they theoretically never come back provided you maintain the same parameters? Or are you continuing having to fight back a resurgence?

 

[Aquacrazed]

I think that logic makes sense once you do have some competition starting to show up since UV kills everything, but did you have anything else you dosed to get you to that point where you had more biodiversity show up?

Also as a follow up, I'm curious, have you had any resurgence of dinos since beating them? I've never really been clear on what exactly "beating them" means, should they theoretically never come back provided you maintain the same parameters? Or are you continuing having to fight back a resurgence?

Just the stuff i mentioned in my original post. It's been a little over a month since the dinos disappeared. It's very important to never let nitrate and phosphates go to zero, this is usually when dinos come back. I do test my nitrates about twice a week because my tank has low nitrates, it's usually around 5ppm.

 

[slingfox]

I have depth with Dino’s a few times. Most recent in connection with a full tank reset. Why has worked for me is 1) ensure nitrate and phosphates don’t go to zero, 2) dose silicates, 3) run UV, and 4) dose bacteria, specially MicrobeLift Special Blend which is cheap and widely available in the US. If the outbreak is very bad then I also hang large sheets of white aquarium fleece on the tank glass since Dino seem to like to colonize that (I rinse out once or twice a day). Last two bouts with Dino’s I beat in 2-3 days with the UV/silicates/bacteria. Those were very minor infestations but I had had crazy bouts with Dino’s before where it was all over the rockwork and sand (during my first year in the hobby).

 

[mcarroll]

So I've been fighting sandbed Dinos (large cell amphidinium) for over 2 years now,

That's no good!

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?​

Most dino's we get have the same core causes, so make sure you've got all the basics covered that I lay out in the first post. Your type does tend to require special treatment, but again make sure you have the basics locked down first.

ScottB and Taricha have also made some supplements to that thread you want to look at, especially for the dino's you have.....look for their articles/PDF's in the article or under their user accounts. They are also linked in the thread near the end (page 633 or after I think).

(Wish I could still edit my thread so both of those items could be linked on the main page. Pretty lame not being able to.)

 

[EnterName]

So I've been fighting sandbed Dinos (large cell amphidinium) for over 2 years now,

That's no good!

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?​

Most dino's we get have the same core causes, so make sure you've got all the basics covered that I lay out in the first post. Your type does tend to require special treatment, but again make sure you have the basics locked down first.

ScottB and Taricha have also made some supplements to that thread you want to look at, especially for the dino's you have.....look for their articles/PDF's in the article or under their user accounts. They are also linked in the thread near the end (page 633 or after I think).

(Wish I could still edit my thread so both of those items could be linked on the main page. Pretty lame not being able to.)

Maybe you can start a new thread gathering the most important information and the admins can pin the new thread instead. This would also clean up the comment section.

I would also offer the dinoflagellate images posted by me from my microscopy thread if you can make use of them.

 

[taylormaximus]

Maybe you can start a new thread gathering the most important information and the admins can pin the new thread instead. This would also clean up the comment section.

I would also offer the dinoflagellate images posted by me from my microscopy thread if you can make use of them.

That's a great thread! I'd love to see some slides of some beneficial bacteria from a well established, healthy sand bed too. It'd be interesting to compare that to a dino dominated one.