MY DRY ROCK/BAREBOTTOM REEF TRUTHS.

[ActualProof]

Sorr

Sorry, sorry.... had my hand in the tank. Oh, after reading your post, maybe I shouldn't have said that. Please disregard. Lol.

All I can say is what a precise log. You mentioned you have another tank I think? I bet that helped with taking it slow. I think when it's the only tank in the house, we tend to be impatient and more fiddley. Respect to your willpower. I don't think I could manage it. I'd be scaping, rescaping and going bat poop crazy asking "Coralline! Why you no grow!?".
I want to also ask you about your lights and nutrient level as they impact the cycle for sure.

How much white light did/do you run and did you notice nutrient spikes etc that contributed to the look of the rock?

I’ve kept the lighting the same the entire time. White tops out at 20%, but I also keep it in “acclimation” mode at 25% reduction of all LEDs permanently. That was the only thing I adjusted… finding a balance between gha growth and how good the snails could manage it. I scrape the glass maybe monthly and never have to remove any gha from the tank itself… only the refugium.



As far as nutrients go, I’m always focused on not increasing the loads any faster than the tank can consume it. I’ve never had more than 4 fish in there at once. I also never added more than one in a 30-day period. I add things one at a time, and then allow weeks for things to stabilize before considering adding anything else. The various populations respond accordingly, but it takes time. Slow, slow, slow, slower, and steady have been keys for me. Early on in my hobby days, I learned that changes/additions had a .999 positive correlation to tank crashes… the odds increasing almost factorially with the number of changes done at once!! I do one maintenance thing per day, tops, unless there’s something requiring immediate repair. I’m annoyingly slow with my tanks, the trade-off being that I probably have one of the more boring tanks compared to a lot of peeps on here! I find my zen in the long-game though. I really prefer letting synthetic nature run it’s course

 

[chipchipbro]

When I setup my 120 with 50/50. The dead was caribsea. The only uglies I got were on the dead rock. They lasted about 6 weeks. The rocks turned brownish from the purple color they were. Cant tell live from dead now.

I would love to see a dead rock setup from day one through 2 years, similar to my build thread, with all the ups and downs with documented pics.

same here. My CaribSea is now brown and ugly after 1.5months.
Hope the algae will pass…

 

[Garf]

**Continued**

Full-on GSP carpet. Anybody want any??

August 10, 2021. A view into the refugium. I harvest a softball-sized wad of chaeto and gha every month. It’s got some valonia, too, don’t care one bit. The crabs love it!

August 23, 2021. I obviously love my euphyllia. I fragged 4 heads off of it.

August 25. Here’s the rock from the side.

The lepto is now growing on random places on the rocks, pushing them closer to “live” status!

He is still kicking… bumblebee snails keep vermetids in check!





Here’s how it stands today. I now consider the rock to be 90% “live”. It is ready to be moved into the display, or traded for some more…

Thanks for reading. Hope this was somewhat informative!

ActualProof

Whereas mine was matured with a few lumps of live rock, and is 15months old. The glass bottom has been cleaned once with a paint scraper about 9 months ago. Gyres cleaned once a few weeks ago.;

Chemical free Bryopsis struggle meant the tank had hands in it every few days for 6 to 8 months;

 

[Maximitsurugi]

I’ve kept the lighting the same the entire time. White tops out at 20%, but I also keep it in “acclimation” mode at 25% reduction of all LEDs permanently. That was the only thing I adjusted… finding a balance between gha growth and how good the snails could manage it. I scrape the glass maybe monthly and never have to remove any gha from the tank itself… only the refugium.



As far as nutrients go, I’m always focused on not increasing the loads any faster than the tank can consume it. I’ve never had more than 4 fish in there at once. I also never added more than one in a 30-day period. I add things one at a time, and then allow weeks for things to stabilize before considering adding anything else. The various populations respond accordingly, but it takes time. Slow, slow, slow, slower, and steady have been keys for me. Early on in my hobby days, I learned that changes/additions had a .999 positive correlation to tank crashes… the odds increasing almost factorially with the number of changes done at once!! I do one maintenance thing per day, tops, unless there’s something requiring immediate repair. I’m annoyingly slow with my tanks, the trade-off being that I probably have one of the more boring tanks compared to a lot of peeps on here! I find my zen in the long-game though. I really prefer letting synthetic nature run it’s course

I think seeing the way you handle things, I might definitely have to do another thread with an idea that comes to mind. All I can say is that you're personality might be perfect for reefing. I don't know if it made you that way or you are that way naturally but kudos.

 

[Gilez007]

So after well over a year and putting all the new aged science and techniques to use, I am now on the other side of what feels like tank maturity, where I can speak to Acroporas.

Truth #1

The only benefit to starting with dry rock is to DIY your custom aqua scape. All other reasons are a candle in the wind. Yes you have grand ideas of being pest free etc but that leads me to...

Truth #2

Systems without pests are a unicorn. I don't say they can't exist, I'm just saying that it's more a possibility that persons who claim they don't have pests are either unaware of its existence due to its location or they have an active pest control method employed keeping the numbers low to invisible. The only benefit one could consider to be a half merit is that with a dry rock system, you are the weak link. Eventually, YOU the user will put something into the tank that will lay dormant for ages and then will pop up leaving you wondering "When?"

Truth #3

There is more to tank biology than cycling, seeded media and bottled bacteria. This is the great unknown.

I started with tons of seeded media that was years old, in my sump and a few pieces in my display, I used added bottled bacteria, etc. As a point I'm also barebottom but my sump has an entire 14 x 12x 10 chamber of sand and rubble from a living reef. This helped greatly to get started and I started growing coralline specs in a week but things didn't take off until quite a while later.

Truth #4

Coralline is a good indicator of reef readiness but it is NOT the end all and be all for growing Acros. Some types of acros will live and even grow but there is an unknown biology/chemistry factor that, until this is reached/Obtained/Achieved, will hinder other types of acros from growing. From my personal experience, hardy stags can go in early and I've had luck with Valida as well. Everything else seemed to just stall out or swung back and forth between looking fine today and horrible tomorrow. If you meet a stick that has lived through hell and back it's still only a 50/50 chance of holding on until stability arrives.

Can these odds be improved, YES! But!!....

Truth # 5

Everybody is a master of....absolutely nothing!
We reef keepers get lucky. The successful ones are the those that have achieved two things IMHO. The first being, they have a system. Whether it's a planned system or just a bunch of habits BUT all these do is improve odds. Nothing more. In the end, for all our big talk, we know almost nothing still.
The second thing that's achieved is sort of my own theory that others MIGHT share. I believe in the theory of beginners luck but in reefing I strongly believe in the old "Blue Thumb". This is the guy that does all you do or even less. He is lazy to our eyes and laid back but anything he tosses in his tank will grow out of the water. He's the guy you ask everything, you test his water personally when you get a frag from him and his params may be the same as your or even waaaay off the BRS recommends. Then you sit in front of your tank depressed, wondering why your stuff doesn't move and wondering if putting on a cheerleading outfit and doing a jig will get them going. FIGHTING!!!!

But that ain't it. The guy has just earned, somewhere along the line, the blue thumb. He's the professional basketball player that couldn't miss a simple shot even if he just lazy shot it.

Oh and to make it worse, he can start a brand new tank from scratch and still outgrow you. He will though, almost never start a tank with dry rock. He don't care bout no stinkin Negative space Scape. Lol. Give him a wall of age old cycled rock and let him get to work.

Truth #6

When copepod populations naturally boom on your rockwork where you see them running like roaches from crevice to crevice, you are close to some level of maturity. I'll take that even a tad over coralline as a marker for maturity for me. It means that something biological is supporting life at the micro level that corals seem to be able to pick up on.

Truth #7

Enjoy the Lower half of your tank, the first year of BAREBOTTOM, dry rock. There are tones to explore in LPS and Softies until you get to maturity. Barebottoms can be hacked to speed maturity to a point if you have live sand elsewhere whose water feeds directly to your return without too much filtration. Eg, I have live sand from a nearby reef. My sump is built similarly to the IceCap sumps but larger and my would be water reservoir holds sand and rubble with one wall lower than the others so water overflows and the return piped off to feed it, which then overflows back into the return. The sand is deep but the water that feeds it can be turned off in case of emergency.

Truth#7

You don't have enough Coral.

No! Nooooooo! NO!

You don't have enough coral to dose even the lowest amount on the bottle. But I have X gallons! Forget it, you don't have the coral load. But aminos say minimum amount to dose is X. Maybe dose a half that or better yet, leave it alone. My corals look X I need Trace Elements! I'll mix some Tropic Marin into my 2 part. No. No you don't. You need a water change maybe.

Truth #8

Keep your alkalinity between 7.5 and 8.5. I choose 8 personally until I'm mature. Higher Alkalinity drives growth but you don't want growth now. You want things that have lived in the sea for millennia to develop, mature and stabilize in parameters that are more at home to them. After that, you can mess with driving growth.

Truth #9

Fish are the secret to feeding your reef. It's not aminos. Trust me. Aminos are useful if you stripped the water, which you shouldn't, but if your system is mature and stable, and your fish are fat then nutrients aren't a problem as long as they are in a safe range. I'll go further to say that Nitrate and Phosphate concentrations are what we get hung up on but ideally, corals prefer 100% ammonia or was it ammonium? ITS Whatever comes out the fishes gills or pee places. Go ask Randy Holmes Farley or something.

I might eventually touch on lighting but that's even more contentious than Trump.
Did I miss a truth? Share yours.

@revhtree We need a R2R Hall of Fame where we highlight one of the great ones each year and you give them a Trophy. Maybe even livestream it. I nominates Randy Holmes Farley. I'm drinking....leave me alone. Lol

Great post!! I'd really like to know more about truth number 7. I have been out of the hobby for about 10 years, and I just jumped back in. Lots has changed, but Im wondering if the old tried and true Berlin method is still the way to go.

 

[Maximitsurugi]

Great post!! I'd really like to know more about truth number 7. I have been out of the hobby for about 10 years, and I just jumped back in. Lots has changed, but Im wondering if the old tried and true Berlin method is still the way to

Well we are in the age of Natural vs Chemical management. What you want is to choose a method that is one, the other, or a hybrid. It just depends on where your waste levels fall. Notice I use the term waste and not nutrients. @jda will tell you that Nitrates and phosphates are essentially waste material above seawater level and the health of your corals will rely on nutrients, which means fish waste, specifically the ammonia/ammonium they release (I can never remember which it is). This is what corals use.

It's like saying humans need air to breath but what we really use is oxygen. We are fine breathing a mixture but if your air is contaminated past a certain level, although we can pull some oxygen from it, we are actually causing harm.

So Berlin method is skimmer and live rock, right? This is basic reef setup for most and is the bulk of waste filtration. It works perfectly if the load is manageable and the skimmer is good but most people don't look at the reverse side of this, starvation.
The better your filtration is, the more you should be feeding your tank. If not, stripping, dinos etc. Filtration nowadays is pretty dang good hence the reason most of us run into stripping and nutrient imbalances. That and the, "I want low/no algae N and P levels" or the other guy named Maximitsurugi who employs every filtration method and then goes "Holy crap! I'm at 0!?"

Moral of that story: Maxi is an idiot. Don't be like Maxi.

Natural Method.
Fake name. Both are actually natural. @Randy Holmes-Farley will tell you this. What I mean is plant based filtration. Chaeto or Algae Turf scrubbing. Chaeto requires space. Algae scrubber less so. Both methods work. Some get results from one but not the other. Personally I use an ATS. Chaeto always dies for me.

Chemical Method.
Still natural, only this time we use bacteria to manage the excess that the skimmer doesn't pull. My advice to you. Stay away from Carbon Dosing. I'm sure you've heard of Vodka dosing but what did yo mama tell you bout liquor!? Just say NO! Of course there's Vinegar, Sugar and Nopox and the truth is they work really well BUT there are too many horrible variables when you start putting something IN (chemical) vs just pulling something OUT (plant method).

Summary:
If this 67th book of the Bible I just wrote leaves you with anything, it should be this.

Get a good DC powered skimmer recommended to you. One that allows you to feed twice as much as you think you would and still keeps your levels safe without issue. If it pulls too much you can turn it down, if not enough, turn it up. Change water. It balances everything and gives peace of mind unlike chemicals. If you still can't control it with that then grow some weed.

P.S. I mean chaeto or turf algae. My being Jamaican slipped out. Sorry

 

[nicksreefs]

Rate it especially the opening lines

wise words! taking the blue thumb approach from the start all I'm interested in knowing is that...
1. The fish are fat and happy
2. My stress levels are low
3. Water tests are basically a thing of the past (can tell from the inhabitants what's going down in clown town)

and...

4. as for live rock vs dry rock...

IMHO it should be simply case of whatever shapes catch your eye

 

[jda]

What jda thinks is that residual N and P levels are fools gold since the corals cannot really use nitrate directly without using a lot of energy to covert it - ammonia/ammonium is the prize from the fish waste. Also, fish waste contains many different kinds of phosphate/phosphorous/organic/inorganic instead of just the one kind on a test kit or that people add when they dose. In the end, keep residual levels low by availability high by feeding a bunch but also exporting a bunch.

You can do this with bare bottom, sand, whatever... but for nearly all tanks that "work" this is happening. A key to this is the sand/rock turning nitrate into nitrogen gas and thus fully completing the nitrogen cycle - this is hard in dry/dead rock tanks without sand since they are so sterile.

For me, berlin with multiple skimmers, 3 inches of sand, real live rock and I have a chaeto fuge along with some water changes. Keeps my N at .1 and P at 1-3 ppb. Fish are fat, happy and not aggressive. Corals grow like crazy with good color needing no trick lighting. If anybody thinks that having low residual N and P starves coral in any way, go to the south pacific, or check out my rebuild thread. I do not say that this is the only way, just what works for me... think that this is easiest with most room for error (and I am lazy).

 

[Maximitsurugi]

What jda thinks is that residual N and P levels are fools gold since the corals cannot really use nitrate directly without using a lot of energy to covert it - ammonia/ammonium is the prize from the fish waste. Also, fish waste contains many different kinds of phosphate/phosphorous/organic/inorganic instead of just the one kind on a test kit or that people add when they dose. In the end, keep residual levels low by availability high by feeding a bunch but also exporting a bunch.

You can do this with bare bottom, sand, whatever... but for nearly all tanks that "work" this is happening. A key to this is the sand/rock turning nitrate into nitrogen gas and thus fully completing the nitrogen cycle - this is hard in dry/dead rock tanks without sand since they are so sterile.

For me, berlin with multiple skimmers, 3 inches of sand, real live rock and I have a chaeto fuge along with some water changes. Keeps my N at .1 and P at 1-3 ppb. Fish are fat, happy and not aggressive. Corals grow like crazy with good color needing no trick lighting. If anybody thinks that having low residual N and P starves coral in any way, go to the south pacific, or check out my rebuild thread. I do not say that this is the only way, just what works for me... think that this is easiest with most room for error (and I am lazy).

Yeah. What he said. Lol. I bet to note though that he does say it's not the only way. To memory @jda doesn't use leds primarily. He'll correct me if I'm wrong but if you are under leds, there is a similar but different variable that comes into play where nutrients are concerned. It's like corals behave differently under high T5 /halide light than they do Leds in general.

 

[jda]

I have a theory about light source and building block levels*, but I will not get into it here. It was actually adopted as a multi-year study at a university, but it is still in it's infancy.

*I hate the term nutrients since it is too broadly used and not well enough understood. N and P are nutrients, sure, but are building blocks of life and not used for energy - these are mostly used to build organic tissue and once you have enough, you have enough. Sugars and other carbon sources are energy and more can actually do something, to a point - your lights are the supplier of these so I never understood why people skim on lights. Carbonate and calcium are nutrients too used to build skeletons - like N and P, once you have enough, more does not really do much. In the end, I just refer to N and P as building blocks since I don't really think that it does any good when people say to get their N and P up to feed their corals since this is not what is happening. Do people need to equate building blocks, calcium, carbonate and sugars/carbon all the same way? Nope, I say.

Edit: post 15 (and some beyond) has my theory on the how the two interact... just a theory with no proof of anything. I don't want to derail this thread, but people can read if they want:

Crunching Numbers at LFS - Radion, Nitrate, Phosphate

Purchased some corals at the LFS today, and took the opportunity to evaluate lighting and nutrients. They use Radion G4s for lighting. PPFD (or PAR, if you will) ranges from 75 to 175 micromole/m2/sec. Photoperiod is 11 hours at this spectral quality: UV-A 2.8% Violet 19.6% Blue 67.8%...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Gilez007]

Yeah. What he said. Lol. I bet to note though that he does say it's not the only way. To memory @jda doesn't use leds primarily. He'll correct me if I'm wrong but if you are under leds, there is a similar but different variable that comes into play where nutrients are concerned. It's like corals behave differently under high T5 /halide light than they do Leds in general.

So do you use mechanical filtration like sponges and socks in the sump?

 

[Maximitsurugi]

So do you use mechanical filtration like sponges and socks in the sump?

Filter socks only. I run UV and I have an ozonizer that's hooked up to my Vertex skimmer. It's run occasionally. Kinda like a freshen up.

 

[Gilez007]

Hahahaha, get it out, man!! I’m another “90’s reefer” (1996, to be exact). I’ve always been fascinated by the absolute over-complication that plagues the hobby. Everybody has their ups and downs, and everybody has lost livestock - if they’ve been in the hobby for a while… some in the first day, right?! In my 24 reefing years (25 next month), I’ve always held close to me another “hard truth” that so many people seem to forget to mention:

“KEEP YOUR FILTHY HANDS AND DISGUSTINGLY HAIRY FOREARMS OUT OF THE TANK”. Seriously. Don’t let your skin contact the water. There are instant chemical reactions, no wonder how clean of a person you *think* you are. Get shoulder-length rubber gloves and soak them overnight in vinegar after you’ve handled them with your oily, repulsive hands. Go months without putting your hands in there. It horrifies your fish when you do it and poisons your animals. Imagine how you’d feel being locked in a closed system with your great uncles Brut Faberge aftershave or whatever. You’d wanna die. Your fish associate your presence with eating, but they otherwise loathe everything about you.
Mix up water with “seawater” parameters and then don’t touch it. Your corals with then “grow out of the water” like you said. Every time you enter the environment, consider that 100 steps backward. Avoid it.

This is a hilarious post, but I'm having a hard time believing it. Any research / further info on this?

 

[Maximitsurugi]

This is a hilarious post, but I'm having a hard time believing it. Any research / further info on this?

I don't know about research but my tank always looks better in growth and colour when I go away for a few weeks and I haven't had my hands in. I lol be traveling to Canada for Chrismus. I'll take a pic before and after and then compare.

 

[Fin]

The good ol' days...

 

[Maximitsurugi]

The good ol' days...

I'm glad I'm around like minded rock creeps. Only in this hobby and maybe Geology geeks, would a bunch of grown butt people sit and drool over some slime coated rocks and how we can't get them no mo. Lol

 

[ActualProof]

This is a hilarious post, but I'm having a hard time believing it. Any research / further info on this?

It’s basically the same reason why divers are begged not to wear sunscreen, lotion, etc, when SCUBA diving reefs. There’s strong evidence that sunscreen and other skin products has contributed to coral bleaching, death, and disease in the wild. Lots of cosmetics, lotions, frangrances, and soaps have chemicals in them that persist on your skin in residual amounts. Going into your tank with bare skin is horrible for it. I don’t need research. I’ve seen it. Your skimmer goes nuts, things close up, maybe worse…. You could have taco sauce still on your hands that has preservatives in it that disrupt gas exchange. You never know. Best practice is shoulder-length gloves that are rinsed with mild vinegar/RODI and then pure RODI in-between uses. Hands in tanks kill. It’s also not great for you!

 

[Maximitsurugi]

It’s basically the same reason why divers are begged not to wear sunscreen, lotion, etc, when SCUBA diving reefs. There’s strong evidence that sunscreen and other skin products has contributed to coral bleaching, death, and disease in the wild. Lots of cosmetics, lotions, frangrances, and soaps have chemicals in them that persist on your skin in residual amounts. Going into your tank with bare skin is horrible for it. I don’t need research. I’ve seen it. Your skimmer goes nuts, things close up, maybe worse…. You could have taco sauce still on your hands that has preservatives in it that disrupt gas exchange. You never know. Best practice is shoulder-length gloves that are rinsed with mild vinegar/RODI and then pure RODI in-between uses. Hands in tanks kill. It’s also not great for you!

I just had a bath but after reading that, I feel even more dirty. Go figure. Lol

 

[Maximitsurugi]

I fooled myself into thinking that I'd be pest free if I did the whole dry rock thing and because it's illegal to pull rock from the ocean here I decided to go the diy dry rock route. So me and the Pops went to work.
I knew I wanted flat rocks for my scape so that was the goal. I used old coral skeleton from an old reef, white sand from the same, rock salt and white Portland cement.
After making and drying them, they were super high in pH, so what did I do? I tossed 'em into the toilet tank. Lol. A water change at every flush. Lost the high pH after a week or two and then I left them in a bucket with a couple, well more than a couple, caps if Seaklear Lanthanum chloride. With this I avoided alllllll the phosphate issues.....and now my tank is phosphate starved.

 

[Maximitsurugi]

Anybody still starting with Barebottom dry rock or did we scare you enough?