MY DRY ROCK/BAREBOTTOM REEF TRUTHS.

Maximitsurugi

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So after well over a year and putting all the new aged science and techniques to use, I am now on the other side of what feels like tank maturity, where I can speak to Acroporas.

Truth #1

The only benefit to starting with dry rock is to DIY your custom aqua scape. All other reasons are a candle in the wind. Yes you have grand ideas of being pest free etc but that leads me to...

Truth #2

Systems without pests are a unicorn. I don't say they can't exist, I'm just saying that it's more a possibility that persons who claim they don't have pests are either unaware of its existence due to its location or they have an active pest control method employed keeping the numbers low to invisible. The only benefit one could consider to be a half merit is that with a dry rock system, you are the weak link. Eventually, YOU the user will put something into the tank that will lay dormant for ages and then will pop up leaving you wondering "When?"

Truth #3

There is more to tank biology than cycling, seeded media and bottled bacteria. This is the great unknown.

I started with tons of seeded media that was years old, in my sump and a few pieces in my display, I used added bottled bacteria, etc. As a point I'm also barebottom but my sump has an entire 14 x 12x 10 chamber of sand and rubble from a living reef. This helped greatly to get started and I started growing coralline specs in a week but things didn't take off until quite a while later.

Truth #4

Coralline is a good indicator of reef readiness but it is NOT the end all and be all for growing Acros. Some types of acros will live and even grow but there is an unknown biology/chemistry factor that, until this is reached/Obtained/Achieved, will hinder other types of acros from growing. From my personal experience, hardy stags can go in early and I've had luck with Valida as well. Everything else seemed to just stall out or swung back and forth between looking fine today and horrible tomorrow. If you meet a stick that has lived through hell and back it's still only a 50/50 chance of holding on until stability arrives.

Can these odds be improved, YES! But!!....

Truth # 5

Everybody is a master of....absolutely nothing!
We reef keepers get lucky. The successful ones are the those that have achieved two things IMHO. The first being, they have a system. Whether it's a planned system or just a bunch of habits BUT all these do is improve odds. Nothing more. In the end, for all our big talk, we know almost nothing still.
The second thing that's achieved is sort of my own theory that others MIGHT share. I believe in the theory of beginners luck but in reefing I strongly believe in the old "Blue Thumb". This is the guy that does all you do or even less. He is lazy to our eyes and laid back but anything he tosses in his tank will grow out of the water. He's the guy you ask everything, you test his water personally when you get a frag from him and his params may be the same as your or even waaaay off the BRS recommends. Then you sit in front of your tank depressed, wondering why your stuff doesn't move and wondering if putting on a cheerleading outfit and doing a jig will get them going. FIGHTING!!!!

But that ain't it. The guy has just earned, somewhere along the line, the blue thumb. He's the professional basketball player that couldn't miss a simple shot even if he just lazy shot it.

Oh and to make it worse, he can start a brand new tank from scratch and still outgrow you. He will though, almost never start a tank with dry rock. He don't care bout no stinkin Negative space Scape. Lol. Give him a wall of age old cycled rock and let him get to work.

Truth #6

When copepod populations naturally boom on your rockwork where you see them running like roaches from crevice to crevice, you are close to some level of maturity. I'll take that even a tad over coralline as a marker for maturity for me. It means that something biological is supporting life at the micro level that corals seem to be able to pick up on.

Truth #7

Enjoy the Lower half of your tank, the first year of BAREBOTTOM, dry rock. There are tones to explore in LPS and Softies until you get to maturity. Barebottoms can be hacked to speed maturity to a point if you have live sand elsewhere whose water feeds directly to your return without too much filtration. Eg, I have live sand from a nearby reef. My sump is built similarly to the IceCap sumps but larger and my would be water reservoir holds sand and rubble with one wall lower than the others so water overflows and the return piped off to feed it, which then overflows back into the return. The sand is deep but the water that feeds it can be turned off in case of emergency.

Truth#7

You don't have enough Coral.

No! Nooooooo! NO!

You don't have enough coral to dose even the lowest amount on the bottle. But I have X gallons! Forget it, you don't have the coral load. But aminos say minimum amount to dose is X. Maybe dose a half that or better yet, leave it alone. My corals look X I need Trace Elements! I'll mix some Tropic Marin into my 2 part. No. No you don't. You need a water change maybe.

Truth #8

Keep your alkalinity between 7.5 and 8.5. I choose 8 personally until I'm mature. Higher Alkalinity drives growth but you don't want growth now. You want things that have lived in the sea for millennia to develop, mature and stabilize in parameters that are more at home to them. After that, you can mess with driving growth.

Truth #9

Fish are the secret to feeding your reef. It's not aminos. Trust me. Aminos are useful if you stripped the water, which you shouldn't, but if your system is mature and stable, and your fish are fat then nutrients aren't a problem as long as they are in a safe range. I'll go further to say that Nitrate and Phosphate concentrations are what we get hung up on but ideally, corals prefer 100% ammonia or was it ammonium? ITS Whatever comes out the fishes gills or pee places. Go ask Randy Holmes Farley or something.

I might eventually touch on lighting but that's even more contentious than Trump.
Did I miss a truth? Share yours.

@revhtree We need a R2R Hall of Fame where we highlight one of the great ones each year and you give them a Trophy. Maybe even livestream it. I nominates Randy Holmes Farley. I'm drinking....leave me alone. Lol
 

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Interesting post!
#5 is pretty funny, imo. Been doing this for over 30 years.

For me the simple truth to a successfull reef tank is to have a plan from day one and focus on keeping your desired parameters in range.

Its really that simple, imo.

Without a plan most will fail.
 

ahiggins

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I love your post :) I fall into the “perfect” idea with dry rock but I was also semi prepared for problems. Not quite for dinos lol but that’s a major set back for most newbies on dry rock.
then I brought a frag and boom, bristleworm heaven
 
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Maximitsurugi

Maximitsurugi

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I love your post :) I fall into the “perfect” idea with dry rock but I was also semi prepared for problems. Not quite for dinos lol but that’s a major set back for most newbies on dry rock.
then I brought a frag and boom, bristleworm heaven
Oh Dinos. How I suffered. I won the really bad Dino raffle. Mine didn't leave the rockwork at night so couldn't get to the UV in sump. I tried all the nutrient mumbo jumbo and nothing worked. What ended up working for me, which was quite counterintuitive was a large water change. It seems that my system, for whatever reason was thrown out of balance and a big NSW water change fixed it all within a day. I don't know what exactly did them in but that's all I did after almost 2 months of suffering.
I think mine was caused by a trace element overdose.
 

Garf

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Oh Dinos. How I suffered. I won the really bad Dino raffle. Mine didn't leave the rockwork at night so couldn't get to the UV in sump. I tried all the nutrient mumbo jumbo and nothing worked. What ended up working for me, which was quite counterintuitive was a large water change. It seems that my system, for whatever reason was thrown out of balance and a big NSW water change fixed it all within a day. I don't know what exactly did them in but that's all I did after almost 2 months of suffering.
I think mine was caused by a trace element overdose.
Seeded my dry rock barebottom tank with a bit of live rock, and Aiptasia and hydroids, and bryopsis :) they all love dry rock startups.
 

Mhamilton0911

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I absolutely love this post. Many reasons, first, you're funny. Maybe not the easy going comical funny, but a dry funny and I get it. Second, you said the things that need to be said. And third, very informative.

I'm new. Less than a year, I started in June. I started mostly dry rock so I could scape it, and then I added live on top for that biological boost. But I get all those truths. Many I've lived through already, and the others make clear sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to type this up! I'm eager to follow and read what others will add.
 
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Maximitsurugi

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Interesting post!
#5 is pretty funny, imo. Been doing this for over 30 years.

For me the simple truth to a successfull reef tank is to have a plan from day one and focus on keeping your desired parameters in range.

Its really that simple, imo.

Without a plan most will fail.

Hey, if y'all wondering, dis is tha guy I'm talking about. " It's simple" he says. "Don't chase numbers" he says. Lol. Thanks for the post @90's reefer. Truly, we all wanna be you when we "Reef grow up". Much respect to your 30 years. You must laugh at our young reefer problems. Lol
 

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Hey, if y'all wondering, dis is tha guy I'm talking about. " It's simple" he says. "Don't chase numbers" he says. Lol. Thanks for the post @90's reefer. Truly, we all wanna be you when we "Reef grow up". Much respect to your 30 years. You must laugh at our young reefer problems. Lol
Actually its kind of sad. Many make it much harder than it needs to be. We all have ups and downs in life. Keeping to the plan in whatever you do is the key to success.
Having all you equipment before adding water helps but many are in to big of a hurry. Its the world we live in today.
Many dont do the required research before taking the plunge.
Their will always be adjustments and add ons as time goes by.
Their will always be issues to deal with. But without a plan it just makes thing that much harder, imo.
 

elorablue

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So after well over a year and putting all the new aged science and techniques to use, I am now on the other side of what feels like tank maturity, where I can speak to Acroporas.

Truth #1

The only benefit to starting with dry rock is to DIY your custom aqua scape. All other reasons are a candle in the wind. Yes you have grand ideas of being pest free etc but that leads me to...

Truth #2

Systems without pests are a unicorn. I don't say they can't exist, I'm just saying that it's more a possibility that persons who claim they don't have pests are either unaware of its existence due to its location or they have an active pest control method employed keeping the numbers low to invisible. The only benefit one could consider to be a half merit is that with a dry rock system, you are the weak link. Eventually, YOU the user will put something into the tank that will lay dormant for ages and then will pop up leaving you wondering "When?"

Truth #3

There is more to tank biology than cycling, seeded media and bottled bacteria. This is the great unknown.

I started with tons of seeded media that was years old, in my sump and a few pieces in my display, I used added bottled bacteria, etc. As a point I'm also barebottom but my sump has an entire 14 x 12x 10 chamber of sand and rubble from a living reef. This helped greatly to get started and I started growing coralline specs in a week but things didn't take off until quite a while later.

Truth #4

Coralline is a good indicator of reef readiness but it is NOT the end all and be all for growing Acros. Some types of acros will live and even grow but there is an unknown biology/chemistry factor that, until this is reached/Obtained/Achieved, will hinder other types of acros from growing. From my personal experience, hardy stags can go in early and I've had luck with Valida as well. Everything else seemed to just stall out or swung back and forth between looking fine today and horrible tomorrow. If you meet a stick that has lived through hell and back it's still only a 50/50 chance of holding on until stability arrives.

Can these odds be improved, YES! But!!....

Truth # 5

Everybody is a master of....absolutely nothing!
We reef keepers get lucky. The successful ones are the those that have achieved two things IMHO. The first being, they have a system. Whether it's a planned system or just a bunch of habits BUT all these do is improve odds. Nothing more. In the end, for all our big talk, we know almost nothing still.
The second thing that's achieved is sort of my own theory that others MIGHT share. I believe in the theory of beginners luck but in reefing I strongly believe in the old "Blue Thumb". This is the guy that does all you do or even less. He is lazy to our eyes and laid back but anything he tosses in his tank will grow out of the water. He's the guy you ask everything, you test his water personally when you get a frag from him and his params may be the same as your or even waaaay off the BRS recommends. Then you sit in front of your tank depressed, wondering why your stuff doesn't move and wondering if putting on a cheerleading outfit and doing a jig will get them going. FIGHTING!!!!

But that ain't it. The guy has just earned, somewhere along the line, the blue thumb. He's the professional basketball player that couldn't miss a simple shot even if he just lazy shot it.

Oh and to make it worse, he can start a brand new tank from scratch and still outgrow you. He will though, almost never start a tank with dry rock. He don't care bout no stinkin Negative space Scape. Lol. Give him a wall of age old cycled rock and let him get to work.

Truth #6

When copepod populations naturally boom on your rockwork where you see them running like roaches from crevice to crevice, you are close to some level of maturity. I'll take that even a tad over coralline as a marker for maturity for me. It means that something biological is supporting life at the micro level that corals seem to be able to pick up on.

Truth #7

Enjoy the Lower half of your tank, the first year of BAREBOTTOM, dry rock. There are tones to explore in LPS and Softies until you get to maturity. Barebottoms can be hacked to speed maturity to a point if you have live sand elsewhere whose water feeds directly to your return without too much filtration. Eg, I have live sand from a nearby reef. My sump is built similarly to the IceCap sumps but larger and my would be water reservoir holds sand and rubble with one wall lower than the others so water overflows and the return piped off to feed it, which then overflows back into the return. The sand is deep but the water that feeds it can be turned off in case of emergency.

Truth#7

You don't have enough Coral.

No! Nooooooo! NO!

You don't have enough coral to dose even the lowest amount on the bottle. But I have X gallons! Forget it, you don't have the coral load. But aminos say minimum amount to dose is X. Maybe dose a half that or better yet, leave it alone. My corals look X I need Trace Elements! I'll mix some Tropic Marin into my 2 part. No. No you don't. You need a water change maybe.

Truth #8

Keep your alkalinity between 7.5 and 8.5. I choose 8 personally until I'm mature. Higher Alkalinity drives growth but you don't want growth now. You want things that have lived in the sea for millennia to develop, mature and stabilize in parameters that are more at home to them. After that, you can mess with driving growth.

Truth #9

Fish are the secret to feeding your reef. It's not aminos. Trust me. Aminos are useful if you stripped the water, which you shouldn't, but if your system is mature and stable, and your fish are fat then nutrients aren't a problem as long as they are in a safe range. I'll go further to say that Nitrate and Phosphate concentrations are what we get hung up on but ideally, corals prefer 100% ammonia or was it ammonium? ITS Whatever comes out the fishes gills or pee places. Go ask Randy Holmes Farley or something.

I might eventually touch on lighting but that's even more contentious than Trump.
Did I miss a truth? Share yours.

@revhtree We need a R2R Hall of Fame where we highlight one of the great ones each year and you give them a Trophy. Maybe even livestream it. I nominates Randy Holmes Farley. I'm drinking....leave me alone. Lol

Post of the Month, maybe the year.
I’m sitting in my car outside my lfs waiting for them to open so I can get my new tank (and some dry rock lol ) and that was a good read. Thanks!!
 

X-37B

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I must throw in that im a live rock guy. I did start my current build thread 120 with 50/50 live and caribsea dry. Alot less headaches, and I would rather deal with pests than the time it takes for a dead rock tank to mature.
 
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Maximitsurugi

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Post of the Month, maybe the year.
I’m sitting in my car outside my lfs waiting for them to open so I can get my new tank (and some dry rock lol ) and that was a good read. Thanks!!
Dry rock? .....Welcome to the club!....Sucker. Lol.

You know all this could be solved by making dry rock Lego style, that you just puzzle together with predrilled holes and pegs and then the LFS guys could just get vats and cycle all the puzzle pieces for a few years.

In 2 years anyone could walk into an LFS, look at a catalogue of the scape they want and the LFS guy just walks over to the Vat and sell him all the pieces he needs, fully matured, give him some coralline coloured pegs, a "How To" diagram and send the dude on his way.
If I lived in the USA that's what I would do as a job. Dry to Live Rock Farming. If someone does it please remember my royalty fee. Let's negotiate before I finish my Red Stripe. After a couple im a sleazy broad. Lol. I'm looking at you @MarcoRocks etc

@Fragbox Corals You could do this March
 
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elorablue

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Dry rock? .....Welcome to the club!....Sucker. Lol.

You know all this could be solved by making dry rock Lego style, that you just puzzle together with predrilled holes and pegs and then the LFS guys could just get vats and cycle all the puzzle pieces for a few years.

In 2 years anyone could walk into an LFS, look at a catalogue of the scape they want and the LFS guy just walks over to the Vat and sell him all the pieces he needs, fully matured, give him some coralline coloured pegs, a "How To" diagram and send the dude on his way.
If I lived in the USA that's what I would do as a job. Dry to Live Rock Farming. If someone does it please remember my royalty fee. Let's negotiate before I finish my Red Stripe. After a couple im a sleazy broad. Lol

You’re just killing it now with that idea! Ha!!
 

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One lfs has dry rock in a 8' tank thats plumbed into the 2000 gal system. This should be more common as the rock, although started dead, will have bacteria for new reefs. This is preferable to off the shelf dead rock.
 
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Maximitsurugi

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One lfs has dry rock in a 8' tank thats plumbed into the 2000 gal system. This should be more common as the rock, although started dead, will have bacteria for new reefs. This is preferable to off the shelf dead rock.
So they are basically selling Live Rock but you lose the one benefit dry rock comes with which is custom scaping. The peg and hole method would give the best of both worlds IMHO.
 

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So after well over a year and putting all the new aged science and techniques to use, I am now on the other side of what feels like tank maturity, where I can speak to Acroporas.

Truth #1

The only benefit to starting with dry rock is to DIY your custom aqua scape. All other reasons are a candle in the wind. Yes you have grand ideas of being pest free etc but that leads me to...

Truth #2

Systems without pests are a unicorn. I don't say they can't exist, I'm just saying that it's more a possibility that persons who claim they don't have pests are either unaware of its existence due to its location or they have an active pest control method employed keeping the numbers low to invisible. The only benefit one could consider to be a half merit is that with a dry rock system, you are the weak link. Eventually, YOU the user will put something into the tank that will lay dormant for ages and then will pop up leaving you wondering "When?"

Truth #3

There is more to tank biology than cycling, seeded media and bottled bacteria. This is the great unknown.

I started with tons of seeded media that was years old, in my sump and a few pieces in my display, I used added bottled bacteria, etc. As a point I'm also barebottom but my sump has an entire 14 x 12x 10 chamber of sand and rubble from a living reef. This helped greatly to get started and I started growing coralline specs in a week but things didn't take off until quite a while later.

Truth #4

Coralline is a good indicator of reef readiness but it is NOT the end all and be all for growing Acros. Some types of acros will live and even grow but there is an unknown biology/chemistry factor that, until this is reached/Obtained/Achieved, will hinder other types of acros from growing. From my personal experience, hardy stags can go in early and I've had luck with Valida as well. Everything else seemed to just stall out or swung back and forth between looking fine today and horrible tomorrow. If you meet a stick that has lived through hell and back it's still only a 50/50 chance of holding on until stability arrives.

Can these odds be improved, YES! But!!....

Truth # 5

Everybody is a master of....absolutely nothing!
We reef keepers get lucky. The successful ones are the those that have achieved two things IMHO. The first being, they have a system. Whether it's a planned system or just a bunch of habits BUT all these do is improve odds. Nothing more. In the end, for all our big talk, we know almost nothing still.
The second thing that's achieved is sort of my own theory that others MIGHT share. I believe in the theory of beginners luck but in reefing I strongly believe in the old "Blue Thumb". This is the guy that does all you do or even less. He is lazy to our eyes and laid back but anything he tosses in his tank will grow out of the water. He's the guy you ask everything, you test his water personally when you get a frag from him and his params may be the same as your or even waaaay off the BRS recommends. Then you sit in front of your tank depressed, wondering why your stuff doesn't move and wondering if putting on a cheerleading outfit and doing a jig will get them going. FIGHTING!!!!

But that ain't it. The guy has just earned, somewhere along the line, the blue thumb. He's the professional basketball player that couldn't miss a simple shot even if he just lazy shot it.

Oh and to make it worse, he can start a brand new tank from scratch and still outgrow you. He will though, almost never start a tank with dry rock. He don't care bout no stinkin Negative space Scape. Lol. Give him a wall of age old cycled rock and let him get to work.

Truth #6

When copepod populations naturally boom on your rockwork where you see them running like roaches from crevice to crevice, you are close to some level of maturity. I'll take that even a tad over coralline as a marker for maturity for me. It means that something biological is supporting life at the micro level that corals seem to be able to pick up on.

Truth #7

Enjoy the Lower half of your tank, the first year of BAREBOTTOM, dry rock. There are tones to explore in LPS and Softies until you get to maturity. Barebottoms can be hacked to speed maturity to a point if you have live sand elsewhere whose water feeds directly to your return without too much filtration. Eg, I have live sand from a nearby reef. My sump is built similarly to the IceCap sumps but larger and my would be water reservoir holds sand and rubble with one wall lower than the others so water overflows and the return piped off to feed it, which then overflows back into the return. The sand is deep but the water that feeds it can be turned off in case of emergency.

Truth#7

You don't have enough Coral.

No! Nooooooo! NO!

You don't have enough coral to dose even the lowest amount on the bottle. But I have X gallons! Forget it, you don't have the coral load. But aminos say minimum amount to dose is X. Maybe dose a half that or better yet, leave it alone. My corals look X I need Trace Elements! I'll mix some Tropic Marin into my 2 part. No. No you don't. You need a water change maybe.

Truth #8

Keep your alkalinity between 7.5 and 8.5. I choose 8 personally until I'm mature. Higher Alkalinity drives growth but you don't want growth now. You want things that have lived in the sea for millennia to develop, mature and stabilize in parameters that are more at home to them. After that, you can mess with driving growth.

Truth #9

Fish are the secret to feeding your reef. It's not aminos. Trust me. Aminos are useful if you stripped the water, which you shouldn't, but if your system is mature and stable, and your fish are fat then nutrients aren't a problem as long as they are in a safe range. I'll go further to say that Nitrate and Phosphate concentrations are what we get hung up on but ideally, corals prefer 100% ammonia or was it ammonium? ITS Whatever comes out the fishes gills or pee places. Go ask Randy Holmes Farley or something.

I might eventually touch on lighting but that's even more contentious than Trump.
Did I miss a truth? Share yours.

@revhtree We need a R2R Hall of Fame where we highlight one of the great ones each year and you give them a Trophy. Maybe even livestream it. I nominates Randy Holmes Farley. I'm drinking....leave me alone. Lol
I agree 100%. You took the words right out of my mouth!
 

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Oh Dinos. How I suffered. I won the really bad Dino raffle. Mine didn't leave the rockwork at night so couldn't get to the UV in sump. I tried all the nutrient mumbo jumbo and nothing worked. What ended up working for me, which was quite counterintuitive was a large water change. It seems that my system, for whatever reason was thrown out of balance and a big NSW water change fixed it all within a day. I don't know what exactly did them in but that's all I did after almost 2 months of suffering.
I think mine was caused by a trace element overdose.
To tell you the truth my reef at 2 years old (and stable and thriving) still has to be vacuumed and scrubbed of dino/cyano regularly. I still have to harvest valonia/bubble algae regularly. (And I have Aptasia that is not a big problem yet). It has improved where I only have to do this when I do water changes and aesthetically it isn't noticeable to the untrained eye. But IMO, control of these nuisance organisms is and will continue to be a constant chore that becomes part of the maintenance regime.
 
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Maximitsurugi

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To tell you the truth my reef at 2 years old (and stable and thriving) still has to be vacuumed and scrubbed of dino/cyano regularly. I still have to harvest valonia/bubble algae regularly. (And I have Aptasia that is not a big problem yet). It has improved where I only have to do this when I do water changes and aesthetically it isn't noticeable to the untrained eye. But IMO, control of these nuisance organisms is and will continue to be a constant chore that becomes part of the maintenance regime.
I have a different problem. I took advantage of one other benefit of dry rock, well, I kinda cheated. I built my own rocks. You can see it in my build thread. The benefit of this was that while I was curring the rocks I bought a bottle of Seaklear lanthanum chloride and I added liberally. Yknow, a splash here, i sploosh there.

In the end I ended up extremely, phosphate limited. I had no phosphate at all. Every test, even the LR phosphorous came back hard zero. So now I'm in the boat where I add diy phosphate to my top off water so that there's a constant supply. The tank literally drinks po4. I can put in .1ppm now and tomorrow at this time I'm 0.
I would recommend to new dry rock people, not to soak the rocks in Lanthanum to rid it of all phosphate like I did, I would, cycle and when it's done and before the lights turn on for the first time, .......who am I kidding, even when the tank is cycling we want the blue lights lol, BUT if you can resist, after cycling, then get yourself some 10 micron socks and drip a few drops of lanthanum everyday into the overflow until you are at a decent level where it's not going back up. Oh and it has to be the overflow, never in the display directly.
 
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X-37B

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So they are basically selling Live Rock but you lose the one benefit dry rock comes with which is custom scaping. The peg and hole method would give the best of both worlds IMHO.
I would say its not anything near live rock. Its dead rock with bacteria which you could still scape even though its wet. The only benifit is possibly reduced po4 if its been in the system long enough. I used some caribsea that was in the same system for 3 months at least and had no cycle and minimal bad algae when setting upy 120.
 
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Maximitsurugi

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I would say its not anything near live rock. Its dead rock with bacteria which you could still scape even though its wet. The only benifit is possibly reduced po4 if its been in the system long enough. I used some caribsea that was in the same system for 3 months at least and had no cycle and minimal bad algae when setting upy 120.
Yeah and that's the whole thing. Maturity I I don't want Seeded dead rock. I want critter filled,live rock.
 

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