" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "

[Vette67]

it’s possible for old school setups to sit in place but here’s what he left out


if his rocks slide down and create a storm his whole tank dies

if a powerhead dislodges his whole tank dies


during a power outage a fully eutrophic sandbed / unexported is taking o2 at many times over what a clean or bare bottom system can run

Luck runs those systems, not planning.

weather luck, hardware luck, external vs internal locus of control.

and lastly, not possible to write a flowchart to reproduce the method, Dr Shimek made one and the hobby still chose bare bottom or stick stirred, for reasons above.


Anyone tries old school hands off nowadays using white base rock and Fiji pink sand, you won’t be reefing in a year you’ll be facing the uglies nonstop and hating reefing, you’ll have the opposite of control.


as long as the stratification remains and it remains lucky untouched, the tank might go ten more years in place.


the tank would be impossible to move and relocate without surgical access, or it would all die.

see how the result is total loss if you break an eggshell? Who wants that type of reefing anymore. One mistake in a decade can kill the tank

I’m willing to take your challenge. My sand bed hasn’t been stirred by anything other than snails since 2012; 9 years now. I will take a Rio 900 power head and blast my sandbed to see what happens. I’m willing to bet not much will happen.. My tank will turn pure white / brown and I won’t be able to see anything for hours, but I bet when everything settles, my only issue will be dusty rocks and corals. Let’s see what happens... sand bed before picture. This is going to make a mess!

 

[brandon429]

Vette don’t it’s not worth the risk to such a nice system.

we already said the majority do fine, it’s the ten percents we try and curb by not ever doing that if its not part of the design already

Disturbed sand bed.

I have a 75 gallon fowlr tank that has been up for about 2 years. I have had nothing but trouble with this tank. Long story short i decided to clean tank yesterday. Toothbrush to rock and vacuum out detritus. I stirred up sand a little with the vacuum but worse the circulation pump must have...

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we see occasional ones like this above and it may not be ammonia causing the associated losses it could be bacteria + substrate in various states of decay. It’s more likely your tank will be fine with its dilution, but that won’t change the fact non storage is safer.

here’s a worse outcome same practice

Upgrade disaster

Recently had a huge leak in our 90 gal reef which forced us to upgrade sooner than expected . The upgrade being a 230 gal with a 48 gal sump . Mistake #1 I added some of the old sand assuming it would be beneficial to have a little bacteria .. I was wrong . Nuked the whole tank killing all fish...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Vette67]

Vette don’t

we already said the majority do fine, it’s the ten percents we try and curb by not ever doing that if its not part of the design already

I am curious the mechanisms involved here. Have no doubt there is detritus stratification that occurs, I just don’t think it is as toxic as most people on this forum are led to believe. There has been a distinct change in reef keeping theory in the last 10 years or so, and I see more and more people rinsing their sand. I just don’t think it is as necessary as is the current conventional wisdom. Maybe my tank has some ability to handle the quick and rapid nutrient import. But I don’t think It is any more special than any other reefer’s here.

I posted that because I already did it and nothing happened. My tank got cloudy, and it looked real ugly. I stopped with the power head when I saw my foxface freaking out. I don’t know if it was the cloudy water or the nutrients that freaked it out. Things are already back to normal. Still slightly cloudy, gravel dust all over everything, but no worse for the wear.

I bring this up for the discussion of the mechanisms involved. I think detritus is not the boogie man it is made out to be. I do agree that what you theorized is what should happen, but it didn’t. Everything looks fine now. This is 2 hours ago:

This is now

 

[brandon429]

Vette don’t

we already said the majority do fine, it’s the ten percents we try and curb by not ever doing that if its not part of the design already

I am curious the mechanisms involved here. Have no doubt there is detritus stratification that occurs, I just don’t think it is as toxic as most people on this forum are led to believe. There has been a distinct change in reef keeping theory in the last 10 years or so, and I see more and more people rinsing their sand. I just don’t think it is as necessary as is the current conventional wisdom. Maybe my tank has some ability to handle the quick and rapid nutrient import. But I don’t think It is any more special than any other reefer’s here.

I posted that because I already did it and nothing happened. My tank got cloudy, and it looked real ugly. I stopped with the power head when I saw my foxface freaking out. I don’t know if it was the cloudy water or the nutrients that freaked it out. Things are already back to normal. Still slightly cloudy, gravel dust all over everything, but no worse for the wear.

I bring this up for the discussion of the mechanisms involved. I think detritus is not the boogie man it is made out to be. I do agree that what you theorized is what should happen, but it didn’t. Everything looks fine now. This is 2 hours ago:

This is now

Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
Wo


If your corals enjoyed that I’d expect feeder tentacles

You have a shallow sandbed vs a deep one, hopefully that helped by keeping the waste exposed to oxygen during its breakdown.

those pics are amazing hope all is ok

 

[Vette67]

here’s a worse outcome same practice

Upgrade disaster

Recently had a huge leak in our 90 gal reef which forced us to upgrade sooner than expected . The upgrade being a 230 gal with a 48 gal sump . Mistake #1 I added some of the old sand assuming it would be beneficial to have a little bacteria .. I was wrong . Nuked the whole tank killing all fish...

www.reef2reef.com

This is a bad example and you should stop quoting it. You got exactly 5 pieces of information.
Old tank cracked 90 gal
New tank set up 230 gal
Moved a cup of sand
Fish died
Ammonia 1 API

Let’s start with the ammonia first. You yourself have railed on more occasions than I remember on how inaccurate API ammonia tests are. But in this case, you believe it. Did anyone establish if the ammonia was the cause of the fish death or the result of the fish death? Order matters. Even most other posters in that thread don’t believe a cup of sand could cause a tank crash. Remember correlation does not mean causation. We know no details of the new tank setup. Was the new saltwater poured in from a brute trash can after sitting for a day and might have been critically low in oxygen? I can throw a guess as to the cause of the fish death as easily as anyone in that thread, and nobody will know after the fact. Did he clean his rock with bleach and not rinse it enough? I could go on, but the point is that it is all speculation. And just because you and the OP believe that is what happened, does not make it true. There simply is not enough information in that thread to come to any meaningful conclusion.

Now if what you say is true and sandbed stratification is so bad, then why would I risk thousands of dollars in livestock to prove my point? I don’t believe my tank is any more capable of handling a nutrient spike than any other tank. Bio film on rocks are bio films. The ones in my tank aren’t special. And why did nothing happen? I ask because I believe there is no easy answer. Our mini ecosystems are much more complex and intertwined than we understand.

Wow nice storm run there.

next step, you make a work thread advising others on non rinsing for tank upgrades and transfers and we track that out a few pages

Brandon, I’m not trying to prove I’m right. Work threads are nothing more than cult behavior; a self fulfilling prophecy, and are not scientific. I proved that blowing a power head into a multi year old sand bed did not nuke the tank. If anyone else wants to try that and post their results, that is their prerogative. I don’t feel the need to have my point validated. I already know what I did and what the results were. And I know there are hundreds of reefers that leave their sand bed alone, just like me, with no ill effect. I see the sandbed as a living, integral part of the filtration. Do clean sand beds work for reef tank? I guess you have no doubt proved that. But are they optimal; well I guess that is a matter of interpretation. My little experiment only shows that they aren’t as caustic as you believe they are.

 

[brandon429]

My concern:

from the article avoiding meltdowns from Greg Hiller:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/gh/index.php

Loose Powerheads

While the suction cups supplied with an inexpensive powerhead might work fine for a few weeks, they should never be relied upon as a long-term mounting solution in a reef tank. Most flexible plastics submerged in saltwater become brittle and inflexible over time. A powerhead falling into a tank and stirring up a deep sand bed could potentially cause a chain reaction in a reef tank, resulting in the loss of sensitive corals from a tissue sloughing event (to be discussed in Part III of this series). To prevent this from occurring, powerheads should be secured to the tank's top edge using their supplied plastic brackets or by means of the newly available magnetic powerhead holders. If a powerhead needs to be positioned lower in the tank, a custom-made bracket can be fabricated from a thin strip of acrylic, a propane torch to warm and bend the acrylic and some nylon nuts and bolts to attach the bracket supplied with the powerhead to the custom-made hanger. While perhaps not the safest suggestion, when using the suction cups supplied with the powerhead, simply affixing the power cord to something outside the tank can take some of the weight off the suction cups and help prevent a powerhead from falling.

_________________________________________________________

people who work with others reefs vs their own recommend the safe, reproducible option not the risky one.

 

[brandon429]

Greg’s article doesn‘t state your tank will certainly die from the event it states the action to be a known risk, thats all.

 

[Vette67]

You want me to be honest, yeah, I wouldn’t recommend doing this. It wasn’t a particularly smart idea. As soon as I did it, I immediately wished I hadn’t. I hated seeing my foxface freak out like it was. That was not fun. I purposely went and turned on my ozone generator to help neutralize what I had done. And increased air flow through my skimmer to help clear the dust. The corals are not as unhappy as you state though; the gorgonian was fully extended as were a lot of my SPS. The hammer and clam were not as opened because my halides were off more so than because of the storm. I do think SPS did extend to try to take advantage of the nutrients.

But I can assure you, this is an experiment I will not do again, and I will not make a work thread and ask people to try this either. It was not fun. It scared me for a little bit. Except the fact that about a quarter of my sand is now stirred. I may just siphon the rest of my sand, instead of kicking it up for my skimmer to eat.

I was not attacking you personally. I don’t disagree with the sentiment that detritus left alone in the sand bed for a decade is a bad thing. It will eventually catch up to you. As I believe it did to me in 2012. I guess I’m just old school and don’t want to let go of the old school ways. Even though I have modified the old schol ways, like you mentioned, with a shallower sand bed instead of the DSBs of the 90’s.

So sorry if I came across as attacking you personally. That was not my intention. Perhaps I should be asleep now instead of posting here!

 

[brandon429]

You want me to be honest, yeah, I wouldn’t recommend doing this. It wasn’t a particularly smart idea. As soon as I did it, I immediately wished I hadn’t. I hated seeing my foxface freak out like it was. That was not fun. I purposely went and turned on my ozone generator to help neutralize what I had done.


_________________________________________________________________


No reef tank should ever contain enough waste to risk that.

That was a nice offset you made, the ozone and if things are still ok now I bet it will be ok tomorrow too

your sand had been picked at/ moved at little due to animals / the tang I read in other posts, that helped with pre turnover hopefully/ prep for the storm

i hope you didn’t think I was personally attacking sometimes geeking out on aquarium stuff gets hyperfocused.

for sure no full lighting for a few days just easy ramp lighting is best, I went to bed way early yesterday due to freezing/ dark early/ nothing better to do and I was wondering why you were up all nite

Vacuuming Sand Detritus - Video

So satisfying. I’m doing small areas with my weekly water changes. Just getting back started on these after a hiatus due to some tank issues. I hope they are as satisfying to watch as they are to perform!

www.reef2reef.com

Look at that cool sandbed siphon!

 

[Aqua Man]

My little experiment

Wow! Bit of time has passed since the storm. Anything different now?

Sometimes what we do today, we don’t see the effects for awhile.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

I haven't touched my sand bed in 8 years. The only thing it's releasing is nitrate bubbles. When do you think "OLD TANK SYNDROME" will start? I think it's just another "OLD REEFERS MYTH"...

any day now....

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Wow! Bit of time has passed since the storm. Anything different now?

Sometimes what we do today, we don’t see the effects for awhile.

i was wondering about this too... i still wonder with some pics.

 

[Vette67]

i was wondering about this too... i still wonder with some pics.

What do you want to know?

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

What do you want to know?

how your experiment went after some time..with some pictures since you put before and just after pictures up, an up date.. that's all

 

[Vette67]

how your experiment went after some time..with some pictures since you put before and just after pictures up, an up date.. that's all

Not much to update. Nothing happened. It scared my fish, so that part was uncomfortable and regrettable, and I was pretty worried that things were not going to go well at the time. So I turned up my skimmer (more wet) and ran my ozone to try to compensate. It is an experiment that I would not repeat. But in the end, there were no adverse reactions. Within a few days, things were back to normal. Rocks and coral got a good dusting of gravel dust that I had to blow off for several days afterward. But in the end, no corals died, no fish lost and no real noticeable difference.

But that was an 8 year undisturbed sandbed that got tuned over with a power head. I wish I had some sage words of wisdom, but I realize the more I try, the less I really understand about these tanks. They are incredibly complex mini ecosystems. I have found there are very few absolutes, and we can’t really predict every reaction based on conventional wisdom. But I do know that stirring an 8 year old sand bed will not nuke a tank in every single case.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Not much to update. Nothing happened. It scared my fish, so that part was uncomfortable and regrettable, and I was pretty worried that things were not going to go well at the time. So I turned up my skimmer (more wet) and ran my ozone to try to compensate. It is an experiment that I would not repeat. But in the end, there were no adverse reactions. Within a few days, things were back to normal. Rocks and coral got a good dusting of gravel dust that I had to blow off for several days afterward. But in the end, no corals died, no fish lost and no real noticeable difference.

But that was an 8 year undisturbed sandbed that got tuned over with a power head. I wish I had some sage words of wisdom, but I realize the more I try, the less I really understand about these tanks. They are incredibly complex mini ecosystems. I have found there are very few absolutes, and we can’t really predict every reaction based on conventional wisdom. But I do know that stirring an 8 year old sand bed will not nuke a tank in every single case.

thats good im glad all went well, and i have always felt the same about this, that it shouldnt mess with the tank. when i did have sand i always wondered about that scenario. thanks for the info! it makes me feel better im sure some others could get some info too, thats one of the reasons i have a bare bottom now, my distrust in sandy detritus!

 

[brandon429]

Nanoreef crash after DSB cleaning

Hello R2R. So... I nearly wiped out one of my 14G Biocubes after an aggressive cleaning. The system has been running and doing well-enough for about 6 years. It is home to a handful of "easy" corals, a couple of clownfish, and a few mobile inverts. I bought an external filter (generic HD10...

www.reef2reef.com

he lacked any dilution price was heavy. it is helpful to log any form of clouding disturbance outcome in this thread since disturbing beds is what is done here.

we are seeing a pattern in disturbing beds preventatively in the clean state (safe) vs disturbing old beds (not safe)