Neptune APEX Reliability (Shocking in my experience!)

[porter_painter]

It is a forum. Hobbyist use different equipment. When a post is made about reliability, regardless of brand, people will post their experience.

No one in this thread can provide accurate data on the overall reliability. The fact that this keeps getting raised honestly makes no sense. It is just that hobbyists experience and it does not mean that others experience the same be it good or bad.

OP had a shocking experience - negative. Few others said they had similar. Few others said the opposite and it has been positive. So let me ask you where does that leave us?

I don't see what your reply has to do with my post?

Trying to apply any kind of statistics on failure rates, etc is simply a diversionary tactic.

 

[MnFish1]

I am not suggesting that some people do not like Neptune products. Perhaps you don't understand what a Shill is?

"A person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization"

There certainly seem to be several people on this forum that are not just simple customers of Neptune that have only ever interacted at arms length. They have done beta testing of products, the are Neptune Insiders, etc...

That means those individuals are not independent

Here is another definition - the word shill definitely has a very negative connotation - at least to me (and this definition: (From Websters:
a: one who acts as a decoy (as for a pitchman or gambler)
b: one who makes a sales pitch or serves as a promoter

I think some people are clearly biased (that might have worked as beta testers or are insiders - but - I dont think they are acting as shills. (just like people who may h ave had problems may also be biased)

 

[Thales]

I am not suggesting that some people do not like Neptune products. Perhaps you don't understand what a Shill is?

"A person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization"

There certainly seem to be several people on this forum that are not just simple customers of Neptune that have only ever interacted at arms length. They have done beta testing of products, the are Neptune Insiders, etc...

That means those individuals are not independent

I don’t think that actually covers what a shill is and I do not think anyone in this thread is shilling.

 

[porter_painter]

Here is another definition - the word shill definitely has a very negative connotation - at least to me (and this definition: (From Websters:
a: one who acts as a decoy (as for a pitchman or gambler)
b: one who makes a sales pitch or serves as a promoter

I think some people are clearly biased (that might have worked as beta testers or are insiders - but - I dont think they are acting as shills. (just like people who may h ave had problems may also be biased)

Choose whichever definition you want. It's all the same in the bigger scheme of things, whether it be conscious or unconscious bias.

It doesn't mean their opinion are invalid - just that they should disclose they have a relationship with Neptune when they are advocating their products and allow the reader to decide for themselves how much they wish to read into that person's posting.

 

[porter_painter]

I don’t think that actually covers what a shill is and I do not think anyone in this thread is shilling.

You doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[MnFish1]

Choose whichever definition you want. It's all the same in the bigger scheme of things, whether it be conscious or unconscious bias.

It doesn't mean their opinion are invalid - just that they should disclose they have a relationship with Neptune when they are advocating their products and allow the reader to decide for themselves how much they wish to read into that person's posting.

This gets kind of tricky right - does that mean that everyone that criticizes Neptune should 'disclose' that they use another brand? Instead - it seems like we should trust what people say on this forum - and not assume that they are doing something inappropriate

 

[Thales]

You doth protest too much, methinks.

What?

 

[porter_painter]

This gets kind of tricky right - does that mean that everyone that criticizes Neptune should 'disclose' that they use another brand? Instead - it seems like we should trust what people say on this forum - and not assume that they are doing something inappropriate

Not the same thing, unless another brand has paid, gifted products, given other things in order to get you to make those critical posts.

Like influencers on social media - if you are paid, gifted products, given other things to review, promote or comment on a product you are now made to disclose it.

 

[MnFish1]

Not the same thing, unless another brand has paid, gifted products, given other things in order to get you to make those critical posts.

Like influencers on social media - if you are paid, gifted products, given other things to review, promote or comment on a product you are now made to disclose it.

People tend to like what they own - whether its given to them or they bought it. If a person in customer service is particularly friendly - as compared to another company where the customer service is 'bad' - I may compliment the 'friendly one' in posts more than another company with the unfriendly service - that makes me biased - but not a shill.

 

[justingraham]

Dunno - that is one of my points in threads like this...we don't know what the 'problem' rate is. From the reading I do, it is far less of a problem than people like to make it, but that is my reading of the sites I visit. It is like shipping companies or cellular providers - people hate the one that gave them problems and love the one that didn't, but all of them are about the same if you pay attention long enough. UPS SUX! FEDEX SUX! DHL SUX! :D

I know the potentials for some problems with the APEX, so I take measures to head off those problems. IMO that makes more sense than trying to use aspects of the system that people report issues with. I have been doing the same with all aquarium equipment since the 1980's.

Since we have no actual data (I am not even willing to go through this thread and count), I suppose it comes down to people you know that give you info on the equipment you are interested in. I didn't trust controllers for a long long long time, and it was talking to people that I trust, that have tanks I want to emulate, that got me to start using them more. Forums are great for general information, but it is so easy for information that is not solid to appear solid, that I try to talk to people I actually know and take their reefkeeping seriously about products or methods that I am interested in so I can get the reality on the ground.

Side note - the people going in whole hog on the MSM at this point seem odd to me. The product is barely available and there is no real way to confirm the numbers...so it makes it hard for me to trust it (along with my personal experience). There is just no info yet to say much one way or the other - I hope that changes soon, because I like the idea and the form factor. :D

I got another question for you

u have said before in one of your macna speeches or articles that u often do not trust the new “it” thing in the hobby something about a pvc pipe wrapped in copper or something like that with a fake DR okaying it.
You just brought this up about the mind steam and how can u trust the numbers.
So now my question with everything u have said how can you trust the numbers Neptune gives you? Weather it is the trident salinity or temp. You do not seem to have the same mindset as you do with the mindstream or some of the test kits you don’t like to use

 

[User1]

I don't see what your reply has to do with my post?

Really? Then you are just being argumentative and calling people swindlers because they have a positive experience with a product. My reply had everything to do with your post.

Trying to apply any kind of statistics on failure rates, etc is simply a diversionary tactic.

As is calling people hawks or a swindler with positive experiences other than yours. If you don't like the product then pony up and admit it. However, your source of frustration does not negate those with positive. Thus asking one to put up the numbers to back their claim.

 

[Thales]

I got another question for you

u have said before in one of your macna speeches or articles that u often do not trust the new “it” thing in the hobby something about a pvc pipe wrapped in copper or something like that with a fake DR okaying it.
You just brought this up about the mind steam and how can u trust the numbers.
So now my question with everything u have said how can you trust the numbers Neptune gives you? Weather it is the trident salinity or temp. You do not seem to have the same mindset as you do with the mindstream or some of the test kits you don’t like to use

Thanks for asking!
Depends on the parameter, and it depends on what one means by trust. Also, the apex is not a new it thing - its been around a while now and has been put thought the paces by people I trust, not just me. I had that same mindset you mention more when it was new.
I have explained publicaly many times, and this is in at least one of the MACNA talks which specifically talks about apex, I generally use testing to look for for trends not for particular numbers.
Temp is pretty straight forward, yet I still run other temp devices for comparison and ballpark confirmation (I once tested bit temp digital thermeters and out of the box some of them read 3 degrees f different from each other!). The trident I have had since last November I think and I have done enough comparative testing (hobby and more professional) to make me trust the trends, yet I still cross check it with other methods from time to time - I also worked with the prototype for over a year on alk and that was rock solid. Even the salinity probe, which goes goody from time to time generally gives a good trendline, I cross check with a misco digital Refracto (based on a lot of comparative testing with solutions of known value over time).
I have two issues with the MSM and have been testing it for like a year, so my feelings about it are different from someone that is just getting it. The trends seem to follow other testing method trends, but some of the numbers seem too far out of range of other methods for me (other have it better). The other is that there is no way to directly validate the readings from the msm with a known solution. I think they are closing in on making it work and look forward to the day I can trust it more - but as I say, the trends seem good.

For me, understanding the realities of the numbers and how they are produced is important. If a number comes up goofy, i look at that parameter more closely before taking action.
Please let me know if any of that doesn’t make sense - it’s a lazy Sunday for me. Thanks!

 

[justingraham]

Thanks for asking!
Depends on the parameter, and it depends on what one means by trust. Also, the apex is not a new it thing - its been around a while now and has been put thought the paces by people I trust, not just me. I had that same mindset you mention more when it was new.
I have explained publicaly many times, and this is in at least one of the MACNA talks which specifically talks about apex, I generally use testing to look for for trends not for particular numbers.
Temp is pretty straight forward, yet I still run other temp devices for comparison and ballpark confirmation (I once tested bit temp digital thermeters and out of the box some of them read 3 degrees f different from each other!). The trident I have had since last November I think and I have done enough comparative testing (hobby and more professional) to make me trust the trends, yet I still cross check it with other methods from time to time - I also worked with the prototype for over a year on alk and that was rock solid. Even the salinity probe, which goes goody from time to time generally gives a good trendline, I cross check with a misco digital Refracto (based on a lot of comparative testing with solutions of known value over time).
I have two issues with the MSM and have been testing it for like a year, so my feelings about it are different from someone that is just getting it. The trends seem to follow other testing method trends, but some of the numbers seem too far out of range of other methods for me (other have it better). The other is that there is no way to directly validate the readings from the msm with a known solution. I think they are closing in on making it work and look forward to the day I can trust it more - but as I say, the trends seem good.

For me, understanding the realities of the numbers and how they are produced is important. If a number comes up goofy, i look at that parameter more closely before taking action.
Please let me know if any of that doesn’t make sense - it’s a lazy Sunday for me. Thanks!

Thanks

so i was more asking about you trusting the trident over the Apex

 

[Thales]

Thanks

so i was more asking about you trusting the trident over the Apex

I am not sure what that means. Do you mean the apex/trident over the msm? And if so, did I not respond to that? Thanks

 

[justingraham]

I am not sure what that means. Do you mean the apex/trident over the msm? And if so, did I not respond to that? Thanks

No I was asking why u trusted the trident (it seemed like in your response you thought I was talking about the apex)

either way you responded as u said you had it a year before so u could check it

 

[robbyg]

Dunno - that is one of my points in threads like this...we don't know what the 'problem' rate is. From the reading I do, it is far less of a problem than people like to make it, but that is my reading of the sites I visit. It is like shipping companies or cellular providers - people hate the one that gave them problems and love the one that didn't, but all of them are about the same if you pay attention long enough. UPS SUX! FEDEX SUX! DHL SUX! :D

When companies and products are getting bashed on forums a few people always come in and reply with the same statements.

1) Nobody comes to a forum to praise a product, they only come when they have a problem.
2) Since people who are happy never say anything it means you cannot gather any statistical data from the complaints.

For anyone that thinks that is true I suggest you go and visit two product based forums.

A) The DJI Drone Forum: Mavic Pilots
Here you will find about 98% of the people are happy with their purchase. It has a huge user base, probably bigger than this forum and most of the posts have to do with how to get more out of a great product.

B) The DirecTV forum: DBS Talk
I have been following this forum for about 10 years.
Since @Thales bought up AT&T I thought this one was relevant. AT&T is a company that sucks! I say this even though my Father worked there for 30 years and retired as a regional COO. When AT&T took over Directv people on the forums started to complain about the service, the price increases, the software updates and the equipment contracts. At the time some people on the forum said oh it's just a few whiners, most people are happy!
Fast forward three years to 2019 and Directv has lost about 3 million customers this year alone and now there is talk of AT&T selling it off. I think way back then the forum posters had a pretty good pulse on what the general public was feeling.

I know the potentials for some problems with the APEX, so I take measures to head off those problems.

That is the problem! There should not be any problems with a controller in it's third year of public release. If you know what the problems are and take measures against them, then I am sure Neptune knows, So why haven't they been fixed? It's kind of like Politics, when did a multiple blown controllers and Powerbars become normal? The older Neptune stuff was not all that fancy but for the most part the hardware and core functions worked.

 

[robbyg]

Neptune also have a lot of Shills on forums to do their bidding for them...

Oh just wait. By Monday morning the alarm will be sounded. If this is anything like RC then I suspect you will see a whole bunch of new people coming into this discussion to defend the King.

 

[User1]

That is the problem! There should not be any problems with a controller in it's third year of public release. If you know what the problems are and take measures against them, then I am sure Neptune knows, So why haven't they been fixed? It's kind of like Politics, when did a multiple blown controllers and Powerbars become normal? The older Neptune stuff was not all that fancy but for the most part the hardware and core functions worked.

Do you carry a spare tire in your car? If you live in an area that would require it. I know some areas it isn't needed due to better transportation options, etc.

Just saying :)

 

[User1]

Oh just wait. By Monday morning the alarm will be sounded. If this is anything like RC then I suspect you will see a whole bunch of new people coming into this discussion to defend the King.

I actually like RC a lot. It gets a bad rap but to be honest it is just a bare bones forum that doesn't blind you with adds. People will be people. Some good, some down right nasty, some bad, etc. They don't need to be defended but I do dislike when I read people bashing it here. Not saying you did.

 

[robbyg]

Do you carry a spare tire in your car? If you live in an area that would require it. I know some areas it isn't needed due to better transportation options, etc.

Just saying :)

A cars parts are expected to fail over a period of time or miles. Some parts a lot faster than the others. I think the better question would be do I keep a spare computer module for my car in the trunk ;)