Neptune Trident

wesman42

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I think some of you need to take the emotion out of it. Neptune isn't exactly a large company and while they have a pretty good product line and overall ecosystem there is a lot of effort into launching a new product. I mean honestly take a step back and think about what the device does based on the information you have. If it doesn't measure consistently and you automate something to act based on that information, and it is wrong...think of the complaints then. Not just applicable to Neptune but any of the vendors that are selling measurement units.

In this case the Trident is going to play a pretty large role in their automation ecosystem. It dang well better be right and consistent after launch. Otherwise they will be in for a lot of trouble. So my stance is simple. It is ready when it is ready. Similar to the Cor pumps. Glad they waited because the pumps work great. Now compare that to a similar product that had to revise their product line.
Quite frankly they should not be charging prices like a large company if they can't continually update their customer base on future products. Rather than give an exact problem being faced with the device, they decide to info hide....which in this day and age is catastrophic to a company.

Think about GM in 2007. They had so many issues up front with their vehicles, because they had different designs for every vehicle they made....and they said nothing, deciding to let taxpayers pay the price. It's the same concept except Neptune is private....and the modus operandi of a private company is to keep customers happy. That's why this doesn't make sense.
 
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Was it us or neptune that told us a date?

They didn’t have to do that but they did and told us to sell all our old apex to get maximum dollar for the units as the trident won’t work for them
which I did because of the trident only to come and find out that when the trident was supposed to be released we can now buy the new brain but no news of the trident on the horizon.
If neptune came out and said we have the trident coming out but we have no time table on when the consumers will get it I wouldn’t have a problem at all but to claim that without a doubt this won’t be like the Cor (watch the Mr saltwater tank video from Macna last year) and will be out in the second quarter of next year when the alktronic and the ghl were both coming out at the same time is a horrible way to sell an item.
I know a couple people who were going to go the ghl route until they heard about the trident and I know a couple more who were unable to get the alktronic because they waited to long for trident and the alktronic sold out.
So I shouldn’t take it personal? They made a claim that I took serious and did everything I could do to ensure I was ready for the trident when they new darn well it wasn’t going to be ready in time but they had no problem selling me a new apex. I shouldn’t take it personal that Terrance told me to sell my old apex for top dollar because they will not sell the new brain. I shouldn’t take it personal that my hard earned money was wasted on a lie? I shouldn’t take it personal that a company I have heavily supported with my money only wants more of my money?

And that brings us to ur last statement I’m guessing ur talking about Ecotech another company I support. Their comparable pump to the Cor 20 has had no problems in fact I get better flow and less Watts with it then with my Cor 20 which also has this high pitched hum in the pvc. Ecotechs pump that puts out 1100 more gph has had some problems but they have owned it in fact I had one burn up and without a receipt or anything they sent me a new one no questions asked two years after the warranty was up.
U claim neptune doesn’t want to put out a bad product how about the AFS (I have sent two back already) or the WAV’s (have had one of them go out and shut down my apex) and I’m one of countless customers who have had the same problem. Neptune’s only saving grace for me is they do stick behind their warranty and Steve I think his name is is a very nice down to earth guy.

So no I won’t take emotion out of it neptune did it to themselves trying to pinch an extra couple of pennies out of us. I bet if or rather when Ecotech brings a controller out to market it will be out when they say it will be out because they won’t need to tell everyone they are working on something because their name sells the product something Neptune’s name used to do. Now they are more worried about selling controllers to people who already have their controllers.

The kh guardian has opened my eyes in multiple ways for the better. Sure the first couple of days I was double and triple checking the KHG and I have run into some problems (none lasting more then a day) but after it has earned my trust it has been one less thing (a major thing I was worried about I tested every day twice a day now it’s like once a month to make sure the machine is good) I have to worry about in a hobby that in a blink of eye we can loose everything. I set up alerts that if anything goes out of whack i am going to know And I’m glad I got it and didn’t wait any longer for something that is more then likely a year or two away.

I appreciate your time in putting this together. However, I still feel you are a bit caught up in nothing. Maybe it is just passion or I'm reading more into it. Personally I treat it like water off a ducks back. They are a business. Maybe they ran into issues with it. In fact, I heard that they went through a total redesign. No idea if that is make believe, truth, or Russian collusion. All I know it is that it isn't out and it doesn't bother me. I own a Apex, atk, auto feeder, and their doser. I also run a Reef Angel because I like how it controls lights better with custom programs with tidal, moon phase, clouds, storms, and acclimation. I'm not really looking or waiting for the trident so maybe it is easier for me to not stress over it...

Please note this is not one vs the other. Yes, I was talking about the Ecotech L or M 1 series that had a series of failures customer wide which went through a redesign. The comment isn't about good or bad or see others have issues. It is about the possibility of something being released too soon and having negative impact on customers past present and future. While you are a customer I went with the Cor because I read all of the failures and know someone who continues to have them even after the redesign. Like you said with Neptune and customer service or warranty he sticks with Ecotech because they stand by theirs. His pump breaks and they send him a new one.

All good. Have a good evening.
 

ca1ore

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I don't see what the big deal is with the trident. I don't know why you would want to test calcium and magnesium multiple times a day. Alkalinity is the only one I would test multiple times a day. Calcium is a once a week test and magnesium is twice a month. Now if it did alk, nitrates and phosphates I would be interested.

It's a bit of peace-of-mind for the dosers. I test alk weekly, everything else almost never. I do think that there was probably a bit of gamesmanship in the original trident announcement being so early (they did the same with the COR) given the number of alk monitoring devices coming to the market.
 
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ZaneTer

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It makes total business sense actually. As more and more people own the classic models the market became saturated and it became more and more difficult to sell the controller as a package. What they could make profit on were mostly the probes. It is similar to T5 fixtures, if T5 were like LEDs that you only had to replace them every 5 or 10 years, what do you think would happen to the T5 bulb manufacturers? Same thing with Apex. Unfortunately people don’t need new apex every few years so they need to find a way to sell more controller. Here enters the 2016 model and the Trident. You want auto testing? You have to have the new model. Sure not every one wants auto testing but it is a major selling point for a new model.

The Trident is an add on module just like the PMK and FMM which is the reason I don’t understand why the classic model can’t run it. It is not like the WiFi connectivity or the power consumption monitor that actually require additional hardware to achieve. Trident is a full add on with all necessary parts and it comes with all necessary firmware so making it compatible shouldn’t be impossible. It is like saying your computer is 8 years old so it can’t run MS Word. As long as the computing capacity is there it should be able to run most softwares, maybe slower but not impossible. However if the computer doesn’t have a USB port then of course it is not compatible with USB add ons because that is a hardware limitation.

From a technical standpoint you are correct and the easiest method for them to lock the Trident to the 2016 mode can only be done via firmware. Apex use a bull poo proprietary communications system. They could have used something open like UDP or TCP. They didn’t want to. If they had then I could have hooked it up to my industrial controller and had better functionality.

For the record I despise companies that used closed communications, forcing their customers to not be able to mix and match the best equipment for their system regardless of vendor. This behaviour was made illegal by the government and is what has forced standard protocols to prevent end users being locked into a hardware ecosystem that may end up considerably overcharging then. They will be free to use any hardware they like and still use their main system.
 

roberthu526

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This just shows you do not really understand how hardware develops. From your USB example (where one can use a $2 adapter) to thinking that the incompatibility is from the apex classic not having wifi or power consumption monitoring- completely unrelated to why trident does not work with the apex classic.

I will try to break it down a bit.
The apex classic is from 2009.

Is your current phone from 2009? Does it work well with 2018 software- can you watch 4k videos with no lag?
Is your current laptop from 2009? Does it work well with 2018 software- can you watch 4k videos with no lag?

Do you expect your 2009 phone to be able to play the newest demanding games available in the App Store? No, because they have minimum requirements for hardware.
Hardware changes. The computing/processing that the trident needs very well could be incompatible with the low processing power on the apex classic.
There does not have to be a big scheme against apex classic users. The apex 2016 can use all of your EB8s, modules, etc. You would just need a new head unit if you need the apex trident capability. The full apex head unit is $399- compatible with all your existing accessories.

Is the fact that 2018 hardware may be incompatible with 2013 hardware really that incompreshensible?

When the apex classic was designed, I assure you that nobody assumed it would be processing the results of advanced titrations of calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium.

2009 dude. 2009. You got 10 years from your apex classic... if you are that bitter that your 10 year old controller wont work with trident, after apex has continually been supporting you with updates to Fusion and modules for this long, I dont know what to say.

I was using the WiFi and power monitoring as an example. I never said Trident needed WiFi or power monitoring to work....
I don’t have a laptop from 2009 but I do have one from 2010 and yes I can watch 4K videos on it. Not as smooth as the one I bought in 2015 but it does play.
Classic Apex was developed back in 2009 and it had been 9 years but I bought the classic version back in 2015 and I am sure many of us bought the classic version in 2015 before they said they were going to release the 2016 model. But I am not bitter because I have the older model, I am bitter because I bout the 2016 model for the Trident which they said they would have for sale in early 2018. It is October now and it has not even been beta tested yet. It is quite an easy way to push for revenue don’t you think? I can’t think of any company using this kind of tactic to push sales. At this point we don’t even know if Trident even exist. If this was happening in the financial market it would be the definition of fraud: buy our portfolio and we guarantee you this much return in a year. Well now it’s been over a year now we don’t see return.
 

roberthu526

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I am a business guy, not a technical guy. I have no idea whether something like trident can work with the old apex or not. I'm always of the view that the future should not be limited by the past - so Neptune should not contrain their future products based on the limitations of the classics. Whether that is the case here I cannot say. What I can say is that the addressable market for trident would be much larger if it could work with the old apex. Clearly if trident cannot be made to work with the old apex there is some 'motivation' for current classic owners to upgrade, but how many will actually do it?

Scenario 1 - by trident not working with the classic, they will sell incrementally more 2016 upgrades, but less overall tridents.

Scenario 2 - if trident worked with the classic, they'd sell more tridents but less 2016 upgrades (though folks will still upgrade to 2016 eventually based on classic failures due to age or other 2016 features).

The question is which scenario generates the most revenue? My guess, and it is just a guess, is that scenario 2 generates higher revenues. That Neptune is not doing that suggests that to me that the inability to get trident to work with the classic is as they have claimed. No need for a conspiracy theory.

However the cash generated by the 2016 model due to Trident not compatible with the classic model came in at least one year before they see any cash from Trident sales. The cost of capital right now is around 12% depending on their debt to asset ratio so they have already raked in not just the 2016 model revenue but also 12% on top of that. Besides they would not and still haven’t seen any revenue from Trident yet for obvious reasons and they may not see any revenue from it for a long time. So why not cash what they can and worry about the Trident later, or not worry about it at all? All they need to do is show us a shell and say “we are working on it”. At least that’s what they have been doing so far.
 

roberthu526

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I appreciate your time in putting this together. However, I still feel you are a bit caught up in nothing. Maybe it is just passion or I'm reading more into it. Personally I treat it like water off a ducks back. They are a business. Maybe they ran into issues with it. In fact, I heard that they went through a total redesign. No idea if that is make believe, truth, or Russian collusion.

All good. Have a good evening.
I love the Russian collusion reference lol
 

JDtimk

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I went with the alkatronic. I don't have apex now and that would mean buying the whole apex system, so that would be very expensive. I also don't care enough about auto testing Cal or Mag. I assume that also means three times the reagent cost on an ongoing basis? Not sure there, just a guess.
I like the simplicity of the alkatronic and it has the ability to control a device through a BT socket as well as dose alk to maintain the alk level if it is low after testing. The controllable blue tooth socket allows you to set a parameter to trigger the socket on or off. I use mine to turn off my Kalk doser if I am trending high on KH.

What I love about that strategy is that it helps maintain balanced ratio of adding alk and cal based on alk consumption. I purposely run my Kalk doser ahead of rate of consumption so that the alkatronic mostly just turns off the Kalk doser to maintain my set parameter and gives room for growth and increased consumption. So if I see my alkatronic is dosing alk to maintain the KH then I know I have to bump up the Kalk doser again to account for growth. (I also run a balanced ratio of two part as a base to make up 60% or so of the demand, but mostly two part is a steady foundation of replenishment that I use because I couldn't keep up with demand with just Kalkwasser.)

So I guess given that strategy and functionality of the alkatronic, I don't see the need for cal and mag auto measure and dosing. I measure mag once a month and it has really never been out of whack since I have been keeping reef tanks the past several years.

Having said that, all is not roses with the alkatronic. I have had some quality issues so far. The stirring bar motor stopped working and now I have been without it for a couple of weeks waiting for it to be repaired. I know s*** happens, but it sucks when it happens to you lol!
 

ca1ore

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However the cash generated by the 2016 model due to Trident not compatible with the classic model came in at least one year before they see any cash from Trident sales. The cost of capital right now is around 12% depending on their debt to asset ratio so they have already raked in not just the 2016 model revenue but also 12% on top of that. Besides they would not and still haven’t seen any revenue from Trident yet for obvious reasons and they may not see any revenue from it for a long time. So why not cash what they can and worry about the Trident later, or not worry about it at all? All they need to do is show us a shell and say “we are working on it”. At least that’s what they have been doing so far.

Well they'd only be gaining the extra 12% if they'd otherwise have to be borrowing from the capital market. Maybe they are, dunno. The rest of your argument is correct, though imdependent of trident; so largely moot to the current discussion. My point was that to suggest that any trident delay as a consequence of them working on making it harder to be compatible with the classic does not make sense to me.
 

roberthu526

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Well they'd only be gaining the extra 12% if they'd otherwise have to be borrowing from the capital market. Maybe they are, dunno. The rest of your argument is correct, though imdependent of trident; so largely moot to the current discussion. My point was that to suggest that any trident delay as a consequence of them working on making it harder to be compatible with the classic does not make sense to me.

Cost of capital exists no matter if you borrow or not. It’s opportunity cost. In other words if they had the cash in hand not using it then they were losing the opportunity of generating additional cash had they invested in the capital market. It is the time value of money.
I know my guess was wild so don’t take it too serious. I am just very disappointed about their tactic of promoting the 2016 Apex.
 

Steven Postalwait

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Its not the same thing. Not connected to your tank- you physically put in a water sample to test. And it uses a bunch of different brands of test kits if you read about it- salifert, etc. Complicated.
Actually from what I've seen and read it pulls the tank water in itself, and uses whatever test kit you prefer. And they're working with companies to produce liquid reagents to make the tests simpler.
 

revhtree

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I’m sure I’ll get accused of trying to protect a sponsor but for the life of me I don’t understand why people get so upset over this.

1. You’re having to wait longer for a product that was once considered a unicorn in the hobby.

2. Neptune is taking their time and making sure they are going to release a product that is ready and tested. We’re not talking about a pump here. We’re taking about an intrigual system component that can make or break your entire system.

3. Why get so mad? There are other products if you want to get something now.

I feel like the hostility from some of you is because you WANT Neptune Systems products but you feel like you’re kinda stuck because the Trident is not ready. If this is not the reason then buy something else. If it is the reason just have a little more patience. I would rather wait, which I am doing, and have one of the best products than jump the gun and add one that’s not going to measure up to expectations.
 

ScooterV

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I'm waiting as well. While I am by NO means angry, I will admit to a rising level of impatience though :) More like a kid stuck on a long drive to Disney World, "Are we there yet?". As long as Neptune doesn't pull over and tell me to shut up, or get out of the car, I'm good :)
 
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From a technical standpoint you are correct and the easiest method for them to lock the Trident to the 2016 mode can only be done via firmware. Apex use a bull poo proprietary communications system. They could have used something open like UDP or TCP. They didn’t want to. If they had then I could have hooked it up to my industrial controller and had better functionality.

This is true for most if not all of the manufactures. Nothing integrates, no standard, own controllers, dongles, and web apps.
 

ZaneTer

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I will not be going with Trident. I still understand the frustration. The product was slated for a date that has already passed. People were pushed towards forking out for a newer unit (don’t for a second believe they couldn’t get it to work with older hardware using a firmware update). Some people invested quite a lot into their systems based on the promise of this great product.

Don’t misunderstand, I firmly believe trident has the potential to be a fantastic product....if it ever arrives.
 

ZaneTer

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This is true for most if not all of the manufactures. Nothing integrates, no standard, own controllers, dongles, and web apps.
True for reef controllers, yes. The rest of the world has moved on with industrial controllers and you can happily mix and match components on your system.
 

roberthu526

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I’m sure I’ll get accused of trying to protect a sponsor but for the life of me I don’t understand why people get so upset over this.

1. You’re having to wait longer for a product that was once considered a unicorn in the hobby.

2. Neptune is taking their time and making sure they are going to release a product that is ready and tested. We’re not talking about a pump here. We’re taking about an intrigual system component that can make or break your entire system.

3. Why get so mad? There are other products if you want to get something now.

I feel like the hostility from some of you is because you WANT Neptune Systems products but you feel like you’re kinda stuck because the Trident is not ready. If this is not the reason then buy something else. If it is the reason just have a little more patience. I would rather wait, which I am doing, and have one of the best products than jump the gun and add one that’s not going to measure up to expectations.

I can’t agree with what you said. I can’t speak for others but I am pretty sure there are a lot of people out there like me who bought the 2016 model because of the Trident. I bought it because of a promise they made and now one year later the promos is still a promise. I don’t think it is unreasonable for me or others like me to be upset. What would you think if by this time next year we are still waiting for the Trident? Are you really saying I have no base for being impatient?
I am in the homebuilding industry and I know exactly how bad it is to over promise on something. We have a strict rule of clean and complete before closing. If any of our builder say to a buyer “we will fix everything right after you close. Don’t worry about it” that builder will be fired right away. It’s not that we can’t finish the job, it’s because there are so many factors that we simply can’t control. Same thing with the Trident. Obviously they didn’t have a product last year when they said they would have it for sale early 2018 because no one in the hobby have seen it so far. It’s been a year now, a year sir.
 

revhtree

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I can’t agree with what you said. I can’t speak for others but I am pretty sure there are a lot of people out there like me who bought the 2016 model because of the Trident. I bought it because of a promise they made and now one year later the promos is still a promise. I don’t think it is unreasonable for me or others like me to be upset. What would you think if by this time next year we are still waiting for the Trident? Are you really saying I have no base for being impatient?
I am in the homebuilding industry and I know exactly how bad it is to over promise on something. We have a strict rule of clean and complete before closing. If any of our builder say to a buyer “we will fix everything right after you close. Don’t worry about it” that builder will be fired right away. It’s not that we can’t finish the job, it’s because there are so many factors that we simply can’t control. Same thing with the Trident. Obviously they didn’t have a product last year when they said they would have it for sale early 2018 because no one in the hobby have seen it so far. It’s been a year now, a year sir.

Obviously you're welcome to your opinion and I appreciate why you feel like you do. I would be angry if the Trident never came to market but it will.
 
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