Old Ways vs New Ways of Reefing

[alabella1]

This is 7 large rocks. Didn’t have to glue them. They’re heavy and with all of those branches, they locked in place. It was a 5 minute aquascape

same

 

[alabella1]

I use dry rock for a few reasons, it’s significantly cheaper and is pest free. I’ve had some issues with very unwanted hitchhikers. One mantis shrimp. I also use bottled bacteria to speed up the process. Fritz definitely works the best in my experience.

I hear tell a one minute dip in water at 1.040 will drive out the hitchikers.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I hear tell a one minute dip in water at 1.040 will drive out the hitchikers.

I’ve heard that as well. Not sure how good that is for the stuff we want to keep in the rock tho.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I just placed an order for gulf ocean live rock. Going to see if we can create a system mixing the old methods and new methods. I’m thinking a 20% ratio of ocean live rock to dead rock. This would make it much more affordable than a 100% ocean rock system. We’ll observe the live rock to remove any pests before incorporating the dead rock into the system. Also, while we go though the observation process you can still make your NSA, or any other type of aquascape, and incorporate that into the full system when the time is right.

I think pods play a big role in these tanks, and are lacking in a dead rock system. Many people buy and buy pods to combat uglies. So while we work on the rock, we’ll create a separate detached pod system that will provide tons of pods to introduce to the system to help during the combination of the live and dead rocks. It will also provide an ongoing pod system once the final display tank is complete.

 

[AquaLogic]

Just as a point of interest, I visited an LFS today for the first time today and asked if they had any live rock. They said yes, but back in some dim bins that no one really touches. He told me no one uses it anymore, they just add bottled bacteria, bio balls, and the system is ready to go.

While the employees were very pleasant and helpful, I wasn't overly impressed with the state of the shop. Their tanks were not very well maintained, they were very expensive and I felt they were not caring for their animals as well as they should. They were using inadequate lighting on most tanks, and I was distressed by a very dimly lit tank with some bubble anemones that were right at the water line stretching for light, obviously not healthy... once again being sold for outrageous pricing.

I was pretty saddened by it all honestly. I'm just coming back to the hobby, and I'm in a different part of the US than I was when I had reefs before. Ironically, I live in a much more metropolitan area than I did in the past and I expected higher end LFS options, but honestly where I visited today was far behind in selection, care, and knowledge than what I was used to. Very surprised to find this outside of one of the biggest US cities.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

Just as a point of interest, I visited an LFS today for the first time today and asked if they had any live rock. They said yes, but back in some dim bins that no one really touches. He told me no one uses it anymore, they just add bottled bacteria, bio balls, and the system is ready to go.

While the employees were very pleasant and helpful, I wasn't overly impressed with the state of the shop. Their tanks were not very well maintained, they were very expensive and I felt they were not caring for their animals as well as they should. They were using inadequate lighting on most tanks, and I was distressed by a very dimly lit tank with some bubble anemones that were right at the water line stretching for light, obviously not healthy... once again being sold for outrageous pricing.

I was pretty saddened by it all honestly. I'm just coming back to the hobby, and I'm in a different part of the US than I was when I had reefs before. Ironically, I live in a much more metropolitan area than I did in the past and I expected higher end LFS options, but honestly where I visited today was far behind in selection, care, and knowledge than what I was used to. Very surprised to find this outside of one of the biggest US cities.

Definitely some LFS are better than others, but that’s very sad.

I feel like live rock from a LFS is just looking for trouble. The ones around my area sell rock from their sumps. That rock is exposed to all kinds of bad stuff.

 

[AquaLogic]

Definitely some LFS are better than others, but that’s very sad.

I feel like live rock from a LFS is just looking for trouble. The ones around my area sell rock from their sumps. That rock is exposed to all kinds of bad stuff.

Yes, the live rock at this LFS looked quite neglected. I would not have trusted it. I visited a second store for the first time today as well, it was more bare bones, but the animals were cared for correctly, tanks were lit well, and the frag tanks had their own sumps rather than one massive connected system. I think massive connected systems are a bad idea. You're just asking for trouble in one tank to spread everywhere.

This LFS had live rock in it's own display with it's own sump. It looked healthy and clean. I would probably try a little live rock from this LFS, the guy that runs it seems to know how to care for his animals. The first LFS had a bunch of kids working there. I'm guessing the owner is making enough to not have to be at the shop often. I won't likely be going back. They had puffers in tanks far too small, which honestly made me very sad. I know how intelligent those creatures are. They deserve to be treated better than that, in my opinion.

 

[GARRIGA]

At this point. I’d trust live tock out of the ocean vs LFS unless I was very familiar with the LFS and how they sourced that live rock. Not sure it is ocean direct like the old days. Might be tank tear downs with no clue what that tank had.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

Im well over 40 years and its ironic although i've adapted to see today's requirements.
You too can then remember acquiring a tank and placing undergravel filter within, attaching a maxijet powerhead on each tube and rinsing dolomite , mixing salt and tap water with some tetra dechlorinator and when the milkiness settled, we added fish and lost nothing. We fed a variety of flakes and fish were happy
If we got ich, we added tetra-Oomed and walked away.
Those were the days. My light was a flourescent shop light and had two condy anemones that were home to damsels but also lots of salt creep and my main filter was a hang on Penguin unit

 

[AquaLogic]

At this point. I’d trust live tock out of the ocean vs LFS unless I was extending familiar with the LFS and how they sourced that live rock. Not sure it is ocean direct like the old days. Might be tank tear downs with no clue what that tank had.

I don't disagree, I wouldn't use it for a large setup, and I don't trust it, but I am setting up a couple of small nanos and I might pick a small piece and throw it in a cheap container with a pump and a heater and see what happens with it after a month just out of curiosity. It will be a little adventure in itself to see what's on it. If everything looks good I'll try it in starting a nano. Nothing to lose in an empty tank other than the 6.99 per pound for the rock.

For my other larger tank (15 gallon innovative marine I picked up today) I'm going to use something like Marcos and cycle it.

 

[Brian1f1]

I never started a tank using new ways but when I started my still running tank in 1971, I SCUBA dove for my rocks in Hawaii and the Caribbean and they wouldn't let you on a plane with all that stinking, smelly wet rock so I bleached it in my hotel room. So it was basically dead.

But I collected NSW near the Brooklyn Bridge. (Maybe not the best water)


I collected live rock (and live asphalt) at boat ramps in the Long Island Sound.

I still try to use NSW as much as I can and I still collect amphipods in the Sound and throw in those rocks mainly for the bacteria. I also dump in mud from a muddy beach when I can.



I never bought a Pod or bacteria in a bottle (whatever that is) because I don't believe in it.
The world is full of bacteria and I feel it is like buying a bottle of air.

No chemicals either.

I also used to add garden soil for bacteria but I didn't invent that. It was Robert Straughn, the Father of salt water fish keeping.

In the last 45 or so years I have had no problems, no diseases and most of my fish are spawning, even the 33 year olds. I also don't have to medicate or quarantine because of the bacteria in the rock and live or fresh food I feed.

Of course I did inadvertently collect hitch hikers but none that caused harm and I kind of liked most of them.

I keep many mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and pipefish and they are all spawning and seemingly only dying of old age.

If I had to start a new tank with all dead rock, bottled bacteria and add pods. I would not be in this hobby. Not even for a day.

I assume Pods are expensive and you would need a ton of them for a few mandarins.



Pods are on every live piece of rock or coral you can buy providing you don't dip it which is something I would never do.

Really seems unbelievable. Velvet will kill in any closed system capable of sustaining marine life. You’ve been lucky. I hope it continues.

 

[Mechano]

There’s no bottled bacteria that will ever equal or come close to providing the diversity of life that real live rock, coral frags, rubble or sand from an established system will. I tried dry rock once……. once. I’ll only add small rubble like pieces of dry rock to an established tank. In fact, I’ll say that dry rock is the worst way to start a tank for new reefers, simply because they have no reference to how closed systems work or what to look for, etc. Now if LFS would get smart, they would offer pest free cured “dry rock” for sale that’s been inoculated with real live rock. But as a veteran of this hobby, I’ll never start a tank with dry rock and bottled bacteria, I’m fine with the pests and everything else that comes with real rock. Dinos were never a big thing years ago, but now they are so commonplace, it’s ridiculous. Cue the old man screaming at clouds meme.

100%. You never heard of dinoflagellates when Indo-Fiji rock was used.

Back then your task was to keep nutrients lower vs today where tanks bottom out in nutrients with dry rock.

 

[Brian1f1]

100%. You never heard of dinoflagellates when Indo-Fiji rock was used.

Back then your task was to keep nutrients lower vs today where tanks bottom out in nutrients with dry rock.

I had horrific dinos that nearly caused me to leave the hobby and tear down my tank that went on from 2020 through 2022. Most of my inverts and much of my coral died. I pretty much gave up on the tank and then I noticed it was gone about 9 months ago. All Pacifica live rock I’ve had for 25 to 20 years now. No idea what brought it on. No idea what quelled it, no idea if it’s coming back, but I’m back, and spending big, so I hope not! Haha

 

[PeterErc]

here’s my experience and it’s been done at least half a dozen times.

Dry rock acid washed and bleached, removes organics and start with clean rock. I cheated not too long ago using rock that was not thoroughly prepped and lost.

I set up a frag tank and wanted cut pieces of coral tile to make a structure. I called some local coral tile companies. One lady took my number and said she may have some. She called back and gave me a number to call.
The man on the line was helpful, he wanted the coral rock removed but told him I only needed a little. He had old rotten pallets overgrown with weeds and full of creepy crawlies. I took coral pieces home 3x3x12”, 2x4x12” , flat pieces, coping.
Same deal, throughly washed, bleached, acid washed, sun dried. Then in the tank it went with dry sand.
The catch is I use tank water from an established tank. Seed the dry rock with a piece of live rock from another system. I add snails and hermits from another system. Scrape coralline off the glass and seed the new tank.
Even with dirty I had no issues until the tank was taken down.

I remember reading Marco rocks tested hot for phosphate. People were acid washing it before use. Marco rock was where the idea for the coral pieces originated from. After looking around the stackable rock was already marketed.

I have used Fritzyme9 but can’t prove if it was helpful or not.

On another note, I have picked up coral rubble, shells off the beach to use as frag mounts. Algae will grow on the rubble unless acid washed.

I am not against using live rock and would like to do another tank using it,

This is how I have been successful using dry rock. I am sure there are other methods as well

 

[AquaLogic]

here’s my experience and it’s been done at least half a dozen times.

Dry rock acid washed and bleached, removes organics and start with clean rock. I cheated not too long ago using rock that was not thoroughly prepped and lost.

I set up a frag tank and wanted cut pieces of coral tile to make a structure. I called some local coral tile companies. One lady took my number and said she may have some. She called back and gave me a number to call.
The man on the line was helpful, he wanted the coral rock removed but told him I only needed a little. He had old rotten pallets overgrown with weeds and full of creepy crawlies. I took coral pieces home 3x3x12”, 2x4x12” , flat pieces, coping.
Same deal, throughly washed, bleached, acid washed, sun dried. Then in the tank it went with dry sand.
The catch is I use tank water from an established tank. Seed the dry rock with a piece of live rock from another system. I add snails and hermits from another system. Scrape coralline off the glass and seed the new tank.
Even with dirty I had no issues until the tank was taken down.

I remember reading Marco rocks tested hot for phosphate. People were acid washing it before use. Marco rock was where the idea for the coral pieces originated from. After looking around the stackable rock was already marketed.

I have used Fritzyme9 but can’t prove if it was helpful or not.

On another note, I have picked up coral rubble, shells off the beach to use as frag mounts. Algae will grow on the rubble unless acid washed.

I am not against using live rock and would like to do another tank using it,

This is how I have been successful using dry rock. I am sure there are other methods as well

Will citric acid suffice for an acid wash?

 

[PeterErc]

Will citric acid suffice for an acid wash?

I use muriatic, never used citric so I can’t confirm. Is acid, acid? I don’t know

I use baking soda, or arm and hammer washing soda to neutralize the acid before dumping. Also this last time bought a bottle or sodium thiosulfate for a DIY chlorine remover. Same price as a store bought bottle and enough to last a long time.

 

[minus9]

here’s my experience and it’s been done at least half a dozen times.

Dry rock acid washed and bleached, removes organics and start with clean rock. I cheated not too long ago using rock that was not thoroughly prepped and lost.

I set up a frag tank and wanted cut pieces of coral tile to make a structure. I called some local coral tile companies. One lady took my number and said she may have some. She called back and gave me a number to call.
The man on the line was helpful, he wanted the coral rock removed but told him I only needed a little. He had old rotten pallets overgrown with weeds and full of creepy crawlies. I took coral pieces home 3x3x12”, 2x4x12” , flat pieces, coping.
Same deal, throughly washed, bleached, acid washed, sun dried. Then in the tank it went with dry sand.
The catch is I use tank water from an established tank. Seed the dry rock with a piece of live rock from another system. I add snails and hermits from another system. Scrape coralline off the glass and seed the new tank.
Even with dirty I had no issues until the tank was taken down.

I remember reading Marco rocks tested hot for phosphate. People were acid washing it before use. Marco rock was where the idea for the coral pieces originated from. After looking around the stackable rock was already marketed.

I have used Fritzyme9 but can’t prove if it was helpful or not.

On another note, I have picked up coral rubble, shells off the beach to use as frag mounts. Algae will grow on the rubble unless acid washed.

I am not against using live rock and would like to do another tank using it,

This is how I have been successful using dry rock. I am sure there are other methods as well

A lot of people don’t do this and run into problems. Cook it in acid/bleach, then cure it with established bacteria. Don’t follow those two in proper succession will result in headaches and a lot of wasted money. Why LFS aren’t cooking and curing their own dry rock is beyond me. It’s easy money and a great way to set up your new customers (and old) with success. Throw in some fully QT’d fish to help feed everything would be a plus.

 

[PeterErc]

A lot of people don’t do this and run into problems. Cook it in acid/bleach, then cure it with established bacteria. Don’t follow those two in proper succession will result in headaches and a lot of wasted money. Why LFS aren’t cooking and curing their own dry rock is beyond me. It’s easy money and a great way to set up your new customers (and old) with success. Throw in some fully QT’d fish to help feed everything would be a plus.

Yes sir, and on another note.

Using clean dry products, rock, sand, pumps, skimmers, etc. there will be no die off.

Introducing an established source of bacteria, coralline scrapings, live rock, snails, hermit crabs, coral fragments, filter sponge seeded from another system will add beneficial bacteria. Using water from a system with levels of NO3, PO4 and everything else in the water column there is no need to cycle the aquarium. The bacteria and required nutrients are already in place. Maintaining the bacteria without spiking the nutrients is a safe bet. The bacteria will multiply as bio load increases which IMO should be done slowly.

I have seen tv episodes where they build a custom tank using resins for substrate. Pump in water, dump in a bottle of stuff and slap it full of fish. How that works out in the long run ??

In the olden days, we (they) used live rock from the ocean that was half dead and or rotten. The aquarium needed to be cycled until the rock was stable and no more die off (cured).

Using fresh LR will not has a much die off at first as some crusty smelly rock. On fresh LR eventually a lot of the life will die, while others will proliferate. The ammonia spike from die off would not be as drastic as long as water parameters were kept in acceptable range. Would it be better to add all fresh LR at once or go slow with addition of fresh rock? Die off would have less impact if not all at once.

I have added fresh LR to an existing tank with no issues. Premium LR from the gulf or keys is fun to order and see what life you get without a lot of die off. As many times as I have broken down tanks and restarted I would be broke using LR.

Once the nitrifying process has been introduced there is no need to “spike” it. The microbes are in place and need to be maintained in order to colonize other areas.

I have also cycled (cooked) LR from broken down systems in a barrel on the porch until cured. Nasty smelly barrel that my wife loved. She always wanted to live close to the beach. Figured she could smell low tide by just going in the backyard.

As has been stated in other posts through many threads the technology has changed. More efficient skimmers, diapers, fleece rollers, bio pellets, carbon dosing, secret ingredient additives. It is possible to strip the water clean. Some people are no longer doing water changes. In the old way, water changes were the heartbeat. The old saying was don’t dose anything you can’t test for and stable parameters.

Is the new way or old way better?
Is the new ways, way of delivering the info different? You bet it is, marketing, social media, ill informed hobbyists sharing there opinions, and ….
Are old timers stuck in there ways?

I know this is a ramble thread, I feel that dry rock has gotten a bad rap when it’s not the rock that’s to blame

 

[Mechano]

This is the most debated question in the reef hobby lol.
There is so many variables that could cause it , but it seems like the majority points to diversity issues.
Something is missing with dry rock and a bottle of bacteria.

 

[MnFish1]

Another question for the old timers around here:

Do any of you remembering having to battle dinos before the days of GFO? I sure don’t. They might flare up for a few days here and there, but nothing persistent.

I remember my first real dino battle. Did all the standard algae remediation stuff, but it wouldn’t budge. Would test the water, and it always had low PO4 (which was always the goal back then). Finally did a week-long black-out. The dinos were gone, but the PO4 barely crept up.

That’s when the light came on for me. Cut the skimmer for awhile and took out the GFO. They came back a little right after, but slowly faded out.

Now dinos are 40% of the threads on this forum.

I think the problem is that the 'old-timers' - did not have xx square CM of bare rock dotted with a couple frags. Which seems to be the norm now. One could buy colonies covering a great portion of the rock for very little money. I think the frag sales has caused a lot of the issue with 'uglies'. As said in jurassic park - nature fills the void (or something like that)