Perry's Shallow Water Acro Dominant Build Thread

[BAUCE]

So I tested po4 today, and it is .11, so 24 hours later, it has gone up .03 So, it now appears that I can suspend dosing p04. To me, this is good news, and ultimately means that sps should at least live. I will still continue to monitor daily to ensure this trend. Mushrooms are looking really good, so when open, usually po4 present, otherwise they tend to shutdown. I also recalibrated fracto, off by .03 sg. SG was 1.028 after calibration, so pulled saltwater and replaced with rodi, and adjusted to 1.025. Also changed out CO2 scrubber media.
2 issues I believe were causing death ro sps, main one, imo was po4 limited, 2nd, too much CO2. We shall see

I had the uncalibrated refractometer problem a couple months back too. I was using the solution and everything but still had problems. It was at 1.030 for who knows how long. I got a digital one to replace it and am loving how much quicker it is. When I brought it down it through off my alkalinity, calcium and magnesium dosing.

 

[Perry]

I had the uncalibrated refractometer problem a couple months back too. I was using the solution and everything but still had problems. It was at 1.030 for who knows how long. I got a digital one to replace it and am loving how much quicker it is. When I brought it down it through off my alkalinity, calcium and magnesium dosing.

Yeah, always something
Makes perfect sense, higher SG= higher concentration of minerals as well as trace, which can definitely throw things off. I calibrated with 35ppt fluid, then verified with RODI @ 0. That said, one more thing to check off list. I also discovered a handful of gfo(phosphate minus), settled in sump compartment with return pump. Likely been there awhile, and unsuspecting, could have something to do with phosphate increasing, post removal. So far, I do not see anything wrong with acros, usually takes a week before they decline, so fingers crossed. Dropping alk to 7/7.5, a level that I am comfortable with. I am seeing consumption, but mainly in ca and mg, probably the clam. Acros and montis still settling, so probably won't see consumption until they begin entrusting at base.
Cheers, and more updates to xome over the weekend

 

[Perry]

Update:
So a week later, and no signs yet of sps additions declining. Still little movement in alk, but it's stable at 7.7dkh.
Thursday I received a SB Reefbar and am extremely impressed with the ease of mounting to my ati unit, and the pop I am seeing from it. I do not plan on adding one to the back, with a slight angle, the actinic lighting covers the entire tank, during lit t5 hours, it adds that wow factor. Still too early to tell, but I am thinking this will be a great addition.
Next, as I said, these corals were an accidental grab, I had no intentions of keeping sps at the moment, but my buddy went a little crazy with bone cutters, and I could not resist. That said, he mentioned having AEFW, so they were dipped and inspected.
As a precaution, I picked up a couple of KZ products. Pohls Extra Special, and Flatworm Stop. I am dosing 2ml of Stop in the mornings, and 1ml of Extra. I also decided to use AF NP Pro and Pro Bio S daily at 3 drops. I am1doing this because my fuge and skimmer cannot keep no3 below 25ppm, so hopefully this will help. Also, I am now growing po4, no dosing of Flourish anymore, I have been steady testing every couple of days, using Hanna Handheld, at .12 This is why I started with the Probiotic method with AF, to slowly lower both. It may be anecdotal, but I do see a great response from all corals. Again, they are alive for now. I know that eventually the fuge with mangroves will kick in, and I doubt I will have to use any products, but for now, it's the kickstart I need to keep these corals happy, while keeping fish happy.
Again, my intent was to put sps on permanent hold, my expectations are low, and all I can do is keep parameters as stable as possible, with regards to the big 3. I am not buying sps, and won't until these encrust at the base, and start throwing branches. For petes sake, up until now, I couldn't even keep montis or BN in this setup, so my efforts are still to acquire my other passion, shrooms.... I like the sloping setup and deep lagoon side of the reef, it allows for lower flow and less light, and shrooms are looking great. If for some reason, the reefing gods are smiling down on me, this tank will look pretty cool with the shallow reef side being dominated by acros.
Thanks for following

 

[Perry]

FWIW,
I thought I should explain exactly why I chose to dose KZ pohls extra special and Flatworm Stop. My intent is to support the health and imunity of sps, specifically acros. I am by no means chasing colors, I am just interested in keeping them alive. Flatworm Stop for immunity support, as well as possible AEFW. The product does not eradicate the worms, but instead promotes the health and vitality of acros, aiding in slime coat production, essentially turning off AEFW, and in some cases, outgrowing what worms damage, therefore starving them out. Leading up to recently, all sps corals eventually suffered tissue damage, all the while showing pe, really weird. This process was very slow, showing gradual tissue loss.
Pohls Extra Special is used for same, but mainly promotes and stimulates pe. I am using at 1/3 recommended dose, as my nutrients are elevated, and it contains aminos.
Np Pro (carbon source) and Pro Bio S(bacteria source), are to slowly reduce nutrients, I find there program more gentle than other bac driven programs. I will continue to monitor nutrients, and hopefully will get the system to run itself without any dosing. I also feel the AF Probiotic bacteria is helpful to the system and corals.

 

[Big E]

I'm curious..........why all the additives? Isn't this the same road you traveled only to have poor success?

Why not just dip the acros 3 times over 30 days and be done with it?

Same question with all the number chasing on the nutrients with additives.

 

[Perry]

I'm curious..........why all the additives? Isn't this the same road you traveled only to have poor success?

Why not just dip the acros 3 times over 30 days and be done with it?

Hi Big E,
Frim what I have experienced, all sps have died in this setup, and I really struggled to identify the problem. The corals suffered tissue necrosis, but much slower than stn. The really weird thing is, that even on branches where tissue is gone, polps still out, and extended.
I have been trying to work this down 3 possible issues.
1. Phosphate limited, no longer an issue
2. Excess CO2 in system, running scrubber
3. Dry rock, just not the diversity I am comfortable with, as opposed to previous setups.
I actually have an acro that I added before this round, and it is still holding on for dear life. Polyps waving, tissue nearly all gone. Like nothing I have ever encountered. I will include a picture later when lights are on, this death is super slow. I am just experimenting and I am aware of exactly how annoying my reefing decisions can be to follow, lol. I never stated that I am ordinary, and likely a turn off to some. If I don't try, I don't know. Sometimes it's lonely being an outlier
Cheers my friend

 

[Big E]

I enjoy your threads, not annoying at all.............sorry if I came off that way.

 

[Perry]

I enjoy your threads, not annoying at all.............sorry if I came off that way.

No way man!
I respect your opinion and skills, I actually use a modified t5 layout that I learned from you my friend 6 t5 setup, 3b+, 2c+, and 1actinic+. Just slightly different. I appreciate any dialog with anyone, it's how we learn and grow. I am trying to be as forthcoming as possible, willing to share the good, bad, and ugly.
And seriously, when I post a pic of this sick acro, please take a look and let me know your thoughts. New additions do not show this yet, but only a week in so far.
Thanks for your reply, I really do appreciate it
Cheers

 

[najer]

The corals suffered tissue necrosis, but much slower than stn. The really weird thing is, that even on branches where tissue is gone, polps still out, and extended.

I would be interested in a pic, I have had an LA Lakers monti do this twice and it is very weird.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Glad you got the nerve to toss acros back in there! I had to take things back to the basics for a while which really helped, so I see what big e is saying. I expect you will have a little better luck now that you don’t have to dose po4.
I just started using pohls extra since I got nitrates back to low values. What’s the difference in the extra and the special?

 

[Perry]

Glad you got the nerve to toss acros back in there! I had to take things back to the basics for a while which really helped, so I see what big e is saying. I expect you will have a little better luck now that you don’t have to dose po4.
I just started using pohls extra since I got nitrates back to low values. What’s the difference in the extra and the special?

As far as I know, special is for pale corals, or those lacking health, probably helps to support zoox, as it is recommended for ULNS. Mine is not, I am not concerned with color, only health to the point where they take off. My pe is insane this morning, so most certainly something is working, and given this tanks history, that is a first.
I totally get what Big E is saying, I have total respect for him as an aquarist. And, under normal circumstances, I couldn't agree more, especially with new hobbyists. My style is kind of out there, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[drawman]

As far as I know, special is for pale corals, or those lacking health, probably helps to support zoox, as it is recommended for ULNS. Mine is not, I am not concerned with color, only health to the point where they take off. My pe is insane this morning, so most certainly something is working, and given this tanks history, that is a first.
I totally get what Big E is saying, I have total respect for him as an aquarist. And, under normal circumstances, I couldn't agree more, especially with new hobbyists. My style is kind of out there, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I get the tinkering mindset. It's somewhat maddening when you've had successful systems (Perry your tank was gorgeous) and the new (even 12 months plus) system repeatedly slowly STNs acros even with great PE.

I'm hoping you not needing to dose PO4 will be a great factor. There is something (I think a mix) of things with dry rock that can just make it challenging. I definitely think a lack of bacterial diversity and lack of PO4 saturation (making it a sponge) play a part. Maybe those that claim having a TON of fish have enough PO4 in the water column so that the rock can't suck it all up? There are definitely outliers to every situation. Anecdotally, I was starting to see things turn around right when I added a small amount of keys live sand and keys mud to my sump before I had to move.

I know you know all of this Perry but I'm hoping you're at that point now where things are just mature enough to turn the corner!

 

[Perry]

I get the tinkering mindset. It's somewhat maddening when you've had successful systems (Perry your tank was gorgeous) and the new (even 12 months plus) system repeatedly slowly STNs acros even with great PE.

I'm hoping you not needing to dose PO4 will be a great factor. There is something (I think a mix) of things with dry rock that can just make it challenging. I definitely think a lack of bacterial diversity and lack of PO4 saturation (making it a sponge) play a part. Maybe those that claim having a TON of fish have enough PO4 in the water column so that the rock can't suck it all up? There are definitely outliers to every situation. Anecdotally, I was starting to see things turn around right when I added a small amount of keys live sand and keys mud to my sump before I had to move.

I know you know all of this Perry but I'm hoping you're at that point now where things are just mature enough to turn the corner!

Thanks Tim, much appreciated

 

[Perry]

Here is that dying coral I was talking about.
Thanks

 

[Perry]

Hopefully someone will chime in, otherwise still alive, and will look to continued documentation.
8th day in to adding sps. PE has doubled, extension, and feeding polyps out. Also, why alk consumption is not really moving, I am seeing the leading edge at base of most, growing over glue. I consider this a good sign. Color still holding from previous tank, possibly better. Montis not washing out, usually first sign of issues, based on all sps added thus far. I am leaning on phosphate being #1 issue.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

It’s amazing those polyps are so big and nice looking but are coming out of something that looks like hell. I have a friend that would take all my pieces like that and revive them to life somehow. But would kill anything nice and new I gave him. Kinda annoying

 

[Perry]

It’s amazing those polyps are so big and nice looking but are coming out of something that looks like hell. I have a friend that would take all my pieces like that and revive them to life somehow. But would kill anything nice and new I gave him. Kinda annoying

Death would start at each corralite, really weird. Abd to see crazy pe on something presumably dead, is even weirder, lol

 

[Big E]

My thoughts--

From the pic that looks like flatworm damage. The tiny babies you cant see hang out in the coralites and they eat the top of the skin, not underneath like the adults. First visual damage can sometimes be seen on the edge of coralites.

Corals don't usually show any signs of stress and will still grow.

Knowing the history of those frags I bet that is the damage you see. The skin probably was originally damaged(thin but not showing skeleton) and then the stress of the move, low po4, probably showed the thin skin damage. It makes sense that some frags are already showing recovery as you have probably removed the pests from that poor environment.

You really need to get a thriving frag from a good environment to see if your system is a cause of anything. I'm guessing it's not.

 

[Perry]

My thoughts--

From the pic that looks like flatworm damage. The tiny babies you cant see hang out in the coralites and they eat the top of the skin, not underneath like the adults. First visual damage can sometimes be seen on the edge of coralites.

Corals don't usually show any signs of stress and will still grow.

Knowing the history of those frags I bet that is the damage you see. The skin probably was originally damaged(thin but not showing skeleton) and then the stress of the move, low po4, probably showed the thin skin damage. It makes sense that some frags are already showing recovery as you have probably removed the pests from that poor environment.

You really need to get a thriving frag from a good environment to see if your system is a cause of anything. I'm guessing it's not.

Hey BigE,
Thanks for looking over the frag. This specific frag was added at same time sourced from a LFS, not my buddies system. I also bought a beach bum monti and at that point, system has no other acros or sps. Within days, the monti started washing out, no pe, and color began fading. The acro started with corralite recession, and slow recession from encrusting edge, slowly working towards base. So while AEFW could still be a factor, I think it's worth pointing out that I do have around 5 emeralds in the system. Could they be eating polyps or tissue, or irritating an otherwise struggling coral, who knows... 2 weeks later, I picked up a seritipora, it too did the polyp recession, and began it's downhill decline... So, my point is, that no sps would really settle, and it would not take long at all to see a slow death begin, very frustrating.
So, following along, with my fail of a thread, and myriad of issues, I started the focus of diversity, and added a fuge, then mangroves to display, and threw my hands in the air, and started collecting easy corals, and watched the tank just do it's thing, just a whole new direction. The sps recently added, were just freebies added in from a mushroom purchase, no intention of keeping sps.
Moved mangroves to sump fuge, and lowere lights. I think the mangroves were competing with green hair, and while nutrients present, never really seemed happy, since moving, the mangroves do appear healthy, likely not competing with the dt, instead with prolifera in fuge, lit opposite cycle 14 hours.
Somewhere in this process, po4 started growing, keep in mind, that at one point, I was dosing 2ml of flourish per day, or the system would bottom out. Now, I am thinking that the new frags are able to use what I feel was unavailable.
This is what led me to begin use of AF Pro Bio S, and NP Pro, just so I can sort of keep control over rising p04, and 25ppm n03. Not to drive nutrients low or ULN, just to a point where I feel in the safe zone. Let's say 10-15ppm n03, and .08-.1 p04. I truly desire not to use any products for reduction, but to allow skimmer and fuge to do the heavy lifting.
KZ FWS, the decision on 1/2 dose is to provide vitality and health to inbound acros, same as 1/3 dose pohls extra special, which imo, has improved pe significantly, and I say this because the corals didn't start receiving this dose 4 days after placed in system, and 2 days later, I see accelerated pe, as well as feeders during daylight hours.
I kbow its a lot to take in, but something positive seems to be occurring, I see this with zoa mini colony and mushroom as well, everything is just perking up.
I just wanted to give you a glimpse of the rhought processing, fwiw.
Thank you very much for your time and I will be sure to update the good, bad, and ugly
Cheers

 

[Big E]

I see, I thought you only had a few acros from your friends flatworm tank that you have tested since your new re-boot.

I fully understand your thought process as I have done the same at times. I've used Nopox/ vinegar-vodka and GFO to get levels back in line short term.

In general, I always think it's best to be very simple in a new set up/reboot to limit variables. Seeded rock, Skimmer and water changes, good fish population. All the other things are add ons or changes you can do as the tank matures and has success.

I had a lot of up and downs early on with my frag tank the first year I set it up. I had everything as it is above except not enough fish. Once I upped the fish population it was clear sailing.

I think a lot of issues with Sps tanks dying unexplained is at a microbial level. Certain bad bacteria take hold or explode in population levels. Without getting too much into this I think UV and ozone are going to get popular in the future. They reduce bacteria and also toxin levels in the water column and as we know most of the useful bacteria reside in a symbiotic relation on an acro or are inside or on the surface of live rock, so they won't be affected in a negative way by keeping a more sterile water column. In other words we may all have bad microbes but they aren't a problem unless they get to plague proportions where they can attack/out compete good bacteria..........who knows why this may happen, but I think it's real.