Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[IslandLifeReef]

@jblasi

Question - Were the treated corals placed back in the same tank or did you quarantine them after dipping them? The in-tank treatment is to eliminate the free swimming parasites in the water column and on corals/rocks/sand.. etc. The dip is more effective for eliminating the parasites within the corals. If rtn has already advanced, then no matter what you do the coral will not survive the treatment or any treatment. We recommend to treat rtn'ing corals as soon as it shows signs of infection; closed polyps for prolonged period, discoloration, tissue loss, melting polyps.

If this is true, then how do you explain the fact that I currently have SPS corals that have gone through STN without any significant change in water parameters and after several months, have started to grow again? The only change in water parameters was a temperature drop of 3 degrees over a 12 hour period before the TN, which the Dr. has said would not cause TN. That was corrected over another 12 hour period. Based on your statements, the only way I could have stopped the TN and save the coral is to use your product to rid the tank of the TN protozoan.

 

[jda]

I cut about 40 frags last week. One of them RTN'd overnight. Since Philaster is the ONLY reason for RTN and it MUST spread to the other corals, then why have I not lost my whole tank?

 

[Kyl]

Obviously you've used RTN stop, duh! Or was it the magic beans? So many products these days that cure everything, hard to keep up.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Over the last few years I have noticed a roller coaster in my SPS tanks. Accelerated growth occurs, everything starts looking better then ever, parameters do no fluctuate, and then out of no where one or two of my nicest high end pieces will start to STN or RTN.

This is a pattern I have noticed in my tank for decades. And not just with corals. I saw the same pattern with macroalgae when I grew a lot of macroalgae. I believe it is simply a result of trying to maintain expanding colonies in a closed system. The organisms will grow really well until the point something critical is exhausted. And that critical something may not have any effect on normal parameters. A die off might temporarily replenish the critical need and re-start growth. But the cycle of growth and occasional die off seems to recur on a regular basis until I am able to figure out what the critical need happens to be. This has gotten easier with ICP testing but I still have a couple of montipora that grow like crazy then die back mysteriously every few months. I only lose the outside edges and never the whole colony. I don't doubt bacteria and ciliates are involved in the die off but the recurring pattern makes me think the rapid growth itself is triggering the die off. My guess is that it happens to the "high end" colonies more often because pricey corals are usually pricey for a reason. Some corals just require more specific conditions to flourish.

After sending in a Triton N-DOC test recently I discovered nearly 100% of the nitrogen in my tank was tied up as nitrate. So now I am experimenting with adding amino acids when the die off starts. It seems to be helping. But not sure I will ever fully understand what is happening. That said - I don't believe killing off bacteria and ciliates is ever going to be a particularly effective treatment against STN or RTN. Addressing the stressor or critical need that compromises the coral allowing bacteria and ciliates to bypass normal defenses seems the best approach. But that is not always something that can be sold in a 16 ounce bottle.

 

[MnFish1]

SO - @Prime Coral started another thread. with a different tone. A written summary of the findings - and comments about who is posting. I personally don't believe that ciliates are the cause of RTN/WBD - certainly not all of them. But - a key point is that there is evidence out there (peer reviewed) that suggests that it MAY be - but further research is required. I'm willing to step back and listen to @Prime Coral and their evidence - I would especially like to hear how the prior science was dismissed. BTW - I'm only talking about the part that ciliates cause RTN. Nothing about the product. Thusfar (I may have missed it) I have not seen any evidence that their product halts or stops RTN - only that it kills ciliates.... So would gasoline - of course it would also kill the coral.....

 

[Prime Coral]

@IslandLifeReef

We were referring to RTN. STN are a group of different parasites that would take weeks to months to show any signs. Natural recovery from them could be a possibility but a 3 degree drop in temperature wouldn't cause this. With RTN parasites, they can consume corals in the matter of hours to days. Corals do not have a change to fight these off since they multiply exponentially.

 

[Prime Coral]

@jda

Same reason why one person can be sick around a group of people who are fine.

 

[MnFish1]

For those interested here is the new thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/p...nd-coral-tissue-necrosis.579460/#post-5901879

 

[jda]

@jda

Same reason why one person can be sick around a group of people who are fine.

It is going to be impossible to walk this back. Those sentiments of "all RTN is cause by Philaster" and "it has to spread" were posted and then doubled down on. You either have to own this as a huge mistake, apologize and start over, or just fail again.

The other one that you are going to have to stop posting is the video with the feign attempt at using Metroniazadole since it has been proven to kill Philaster many times over. Again, either stop using it, or come clean and say that you did not use the same way that was proven to work. Without this, you will fail again as even more smart people stop trusting you.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

@IslandLifeReef

We were referring to RTN. STN are a group of different parasites that would take weeks to months to show any signs. Natural recovery from them could be a possibility but a 3 degree drop in temperature wouldn't cause this. With RTN parasites, they can consume corals in the matter of hours to days. Corals do not have a change to fight these off since they multiply exponentially.

Ok @Prime Coral, are you now changing your stance on the cause of RTN, STN, and bleaching? On March 13th, 2019 you or someone from your lab posted the following;

"In 2018, Dr. Ara Deukmedjian performed a series of tests at Prime Coral Labs proving these protozoans are the cause of coral dieases RTN and STN by culturing and infecting coral samples with the protozoans. Because colonization of a healthy coral by the protozoans ultimately and ALWAYS leads to coral disease (RTN, STN and bleaching) and death,"

You did not differentiate between the different parasites nor the different diseases. You made a broad brush statement that all RTN, STN, and bleaching were caused by "the protozoans" and that the result was ALWAYS death. There was no mention of possible natural recovery. In subsequent posts, @Prime Coral went on to say that the only way to stop the TN was to rid the tank of the protozoan. Again, no mention of possible natural recovery.

So, is it now your position that not all RTN, STN, bleaching and brown jelly disease are the same? If that is the case, how do you differentiate between the different types of TN in order to treat the tanks without having lab grade equipment at home or sending samples off to determine what the cause of the TN, bleaching, or brown jelly disease are?

This appears to be a significant shift in the blunt, "we have discovered to sole cause of TN" statements that have been published on previous threads. If so, I appreciate your openness to debate this for the good of all reefers.

 

[Prime Coral]

@jda @IslandLifeReef

We have always defined Coral RTN as a parasite infection which is caused by the philaster and is also very contagious. We always found RTN and STN parasite when a coral has rapid tissue necrosing or bleaching.

The easiest determination of differentiating the types of infection is visually and the time it takes the coral tissue to necrose or bleach.

I don't want to confuse all this with just any other tissue necrosis of corals which can be caused by anything, even from another coral sting.


We found that metronidazole has no effect on the parasites yet our dosage was 5x higher than the experiment:

 

[jda]

Still the same BS... you are going to fail again with this current push and continue to get bashed by the smart people on here. There is a record of the non-sequitur and misleading posts for all to see. The people will just see these as more of the same.

 

[WWIII]

I don't want to confuse all this with just any other tissue necrosis of corals which can be caused by anything, even from another coral sting

Are you sure? Seem to be trying pretty hard to do exactly this.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

@jda @IslandLifeReef

We have always defined Coral RTN as a parasite infection which is caused by the philaster and is also very contagious. We always found RTN and STN parasite when a coral has rapid tissue necrosing or bleaching.

No, that is not what you have always said. You stated that all TN, bleaching, and brown jelly disease was caused by a parasite, or protozoan and never differentiated between them. You also said that you had the only product that could stop this protozoan that caused both RTN and STN and that if you didn't kill the protozoan, the coral would die. Now you are saying that some STN is caused by a different protozoan and that some STN can be cured naturally. There is a big difference. You have accused posters of not being smart enough to understand the science, yet you seem to contradict yourself when presented with scenarios that don't fit your claims.

 

[Mike N]

Interesting reading through this and then the F-aiptasia thread.
A little tact and open communication goes a long way to gaining trust.

 

[Scott Campbell]

“There’s nothing quite as frightening as someone who knows they are right.”
― Michael Faraday

 

[BigJohnny]

@jda @IslandLifeReef

We have always defined Coral RTN as a parasite infection which is caused by the philaster and is also very contagious. We always found RTN and STN parasite when a coral has rapid tissue necrosing or bleaching.

The easiest determination of differentiating the types of infection is visually and the time it takes the coral tissue to necrose or bleach.

I don't want to confuse all this with just any other tissue necrosis of corals which can be caused by anything, even from another coral sting.


We found that metronidazole has no effect on the parasites yet our dosage was 5x higher than the experiment:

Yes! Please keep talking. It was insulting at first and now it's just sad. You must be a full blown narcissist to think that you can just slither your way out of this mess by spouting the same contradicting, backpedaling, misleading nonsense that got you absolutely humiliated in the first place. I'm completely blown away that you came back and are trying again. By all means, continue!

 

[sde1500]

While the assistant was no more helpful in really giving us answers, at least we were given the run around respectfully. The responses take such a drastic turn into narcissism and insults as soon as the dr gets ahold of the account it’s shocking. Some members aren’t too much better, but given the level of run around prime continues to give it’s hard to blame them.

 

[Thales]

This was in the thread just closed - cryptocaryon causes STN? Can you support that?

 

[Reefahholic]

Saw he was at Reefapalooza.