QT tank, dose or observe only?

[MnFish1]

I just reread the link I posted and the effect I don’t see where it specifically says Ionic it just says copper . It doesn’t exclude cleated copper

the article is based on using ionic copper. Thus it wouldn't mention chelated copper. I believe I said (when I posted the article) that there was very little in it concerning non-ionic copper. Both types of copper if overdosed are toxic.

 

[me & my baby]

Just so it's clear - I'm not making the case that copper is bad. I think the quarantine system here is well researched and based on science. The chelated copper is not as toxic and easier to manage than ionic copper. If you overdose or under dose you will/can have problems. When it comes to scientific papers, I have looked, and I don't see anything written about short-term copper use being 'dangerous'.

it is used at nearly every aquarium in the country in their biosecurity program. From the National Institutes of health: "Copper is industry-standard protocol and widely used behind the scenes in AZA-accredited zoos and public aquariums. Institutional biosecurity demands rigorous quarantine to protect massive, high-value display exhibits, and copper is their primary weapon against devastating protozoal crashes. [1, 2, 3]"

This is data enough for me to recommend it (strongly)

I do agree with you on copper treatment , I just don’t agree with people just dosing to be dosing if there is no signs or symptoms to treat .

 

[MnFish1]

I do agree with you on copper treatment , I just don’t agree with people just dosing to be dosing if there is no signs or symptoms to treat .

There are many points that have been made on both sides. I think anyone should do what ever they want. Just so you know where I'm coming from - on a weekly basis we read at least 100 posts stating 'my fish are all sick, I didn't do a medicated quarantine'. I think that experience holds at least some weight.

 

[me & my baby]

I do agree with you on copper treatment , I just don’t agree with people just dosing to be dosing if there is no signs or symptoms to treat .

There are many points that have been made on both sides. I think anyone should do what ever they want. Just so you know where I'm coming from - on a weekly basis we read at least 100 posts stating 'my fish are all sick, I didn't do a medicated quarantine'. I think that experience holds at least some weight.

Oh I totally agree , I read a lot of them . I also agree with the treatments that are suggested that is why I have all of them on hand ready to go if I need them . By no means am I suggesting not treating a sick fish . One I wish the local retail stores and online vendors would be more diligent on fish health and disinfecting systems that have had disease. Second I wish people would look more closely at the systems they are buying fish from and the patterns of the fish they get from certain places . But unfortunately most retail and online stores just think about the quick flip and profit margins. I personally will not buy a fish that has been kept in low dose copper system . To me that is a big red flag .

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I do agree with you on copper treatment , I just don’t agree with people just dosing to be dosing if there is no signs or symptoms to treat .

The problem is that amine-chelated copper is mild, but also slow to work. Dosing it after symptoms appear doesn’t work unless you catch things VERY early, and we see that many aquarists miss those subtle initial symptoms.

Another issue is fish harboring chronic infections of Cryptocaryon that go untreated because there are no symptoms…but then, when the fish is moved to a display, there is usually some stress involved that can cause the infection become acute.

 

[me & my baby]

I do agree with you on copper treatment , I just don’t agree with people just dosing to be dosing if there is no signs or symptoms to treat .

The problem is that amine-chelated copper is mild, but also slow to work. Dosing it after symptoms appear doesn’t work unless you catch things VERY early, and we see that many aquarists miss those subtle initial symptoms.

Another issue is fish harboring chronic infections of Cryptocaryon that go untreated because there are no symptoms…but then, when the fish is moved to a display, there is usually some stress involved that can cause the infection become acute.

Velvet and Brook are both active so doesn’t take long for it to show up , uronema and ich can be both that is brought out by stress . There have been several recent reefer that have effectively treated both in tank with H202 dosing with no ill effect to inverts , coral or the rest of the tank . Most people don’t have microscopes to take skins scrapes for uronema and formalin is a harsh treatment and is toxic to fish and humans .

 

[MnFish1]

Velvet and Brook are both active so doesn’t take long for it to show up , uronema and ich can be both that is brought out by stress . There have been several recent reefer that have effectively treated both in tank with H202 dosing with no ill effect to inverts , coral or the rest of the tank . Most people don’t have microscopes to take skins scrapes for uronema and formalin is a harsh treatment and is toxic to fish and humans .

Is is suggested that H2O2 baths not be used with uronema after a sore (the red stripe0 has developed, as it causes irritation, etc. Most people use h2o2 as a bath. I'm not sure how you would definitively tell uronema from something else until the red lesion(s) appear. When that happens it is considered not curable

 

[me & my baby]

Velvet and Brook are both active so doesn’t take long for it to show up , uronema and ich can be both that is brought out by stress . There have been several recent reefer that have effectively treated both in tank with H202 dosing with no ill effect to inverts , coral or the rest of the tank . Most people don’t have microscopes to take skins scrapes for uronema and formalin is a harsh treatment and is toxic to fish and humans .

Is is suggested that H2O2 baths not be used with uronema after a sore (the red stripe0 has developed, as it causes irritation, etc. Most people use h2o2 as a bath. I'm not sure how you would definitively tell uronema from something else until the red lesion(s) appear. When that happens it is considered not curable

The only really way to tell is by sending off a skin scrap or if your trained do it your self And yes h202 does burn the red sores but some fish vets put pure honey on the open sore to help with bacterial infections . During treatment .

 

[MnFish1]

The only really way to tell is by sending off a skin scrap or if your trained do it your self And yes h202 does burn the red sores but some fish vets put pure honey on the open sore to help with bacterial infections . During treatment .

I believe that a true cure of uronema is extremely rare once the sores are present. This is from another site: "Avoid Harsh Chemicals: Do not use Formalin or Hydrogen Peroxide on fish that already have open red sores. These harsh chemicals will burn the exposed flesh and cause more harm than good"

 

[me & my baby]

I believe that a true cure of uronema is extremely rare once the sores are present. This is from another site: "Avoid Harsh Chemicals: Do not use Formalin or Hydrogen Peroxide on fish that already have open red sores. These harsh chemicals will burn the exposed flesh and cause more harm than good"

Hence why I said some fish vets put pure honey over the sores . Pure honey is a natural antibacterial. I guess you missed that part of my post

 

[winxp_man]

I just reread the link I posted and the effect I don’t see where it specifically says Ionic it just says copper . It doesn’t exclude cleated copper

It’s stated in there that the write up is mostly based on Copper Sulfate.

“This publication will concentrate on the use of "bluestone" or "blue copperas" copper sulfate (CuSO4 •5H2O; i.e., copper sulfate pentahydrate), the most commonly used form of copper for aquaculture. However, before you use copper or any other chemical or drug, be sure to review local, state, and federal regulations and guidelines for legalities regarding application and discharge of the treated water.”

Again same thing as the previous article posted. Nothing in long term that I see chelated being used. And copper power claims it’s 60% less toxic vs ionic.

If the risk is organ and gill failure how has that been studied in chelated? Vs ionic? I even give my fish a quick gill inspection being that is the most common place where issues will show along side fast breathing.


And let’s be real here, some that cry about copper causing harm, are also possibly dosing chemicals in their DT’s one that comes to mind is phosphate-e. Yes let’s get lanthanum going in our tanks. I’m also guilty of it recently. Not going to say do it or don’t (po4-e doing that is or lanthanum) but my two yellows, having dosed it three times, started showing issues. I stopped instantly and did some good ol WC’s and did Rowa Phos in a reactor, fish are now recovering and getting colored up real nice. And I feed quality foods, with not many fillers as some on this forum have seen me write on quality foods. But it was still not enough because of the chemicals I decided to dose.

I’m the person if you make a back it up. That’s all. And for me, my back up is simple. Copper Power works, and gave me a disease free tank. And no second guessing with what if’s. And I see right here on this thread the guys talking about even velvet. And how it took down their tank because of not QT’ing. So I will ask this is velvet curable with copper power, copper safe at 2.25ppm?

 

[me & my baby]

I just reread the link I posted and the effect I don’t see where it specifically says Ionic it just says copper . It doesn’t exclude cleated copper

That is part of my point about just anyone dosing without the proper equipment for testing and the knowledge some novice person can really hurt there fish trying to
help it . The article does refer to copper sulfate but the side effect is referring to copper . Here is the thing , I am not going to debate with you. Since you originally said you have never heard of copper resistance bacteria or parasites which I posted article proving does exist , plus you also said you have no Knowledge of copper effect on the immune systems which I prove in another article that it does . To each is their own , I treat the way I treat , you treat the way you treat all I am saying there is more than one way to QT fish

 

[me & my baby]

I just reread the link I posted and the effect I don’t see where it specifically says Ionic it just says copper . It doesn’t exclude cleated copper

It’s stated in there that the write up is mostly based on Copper Sulfate.

“This publication will concentrate on the use of "bluestone" or "blue copperas" copper sulfate (CuSO4 •5H2O; i.e., copper sulfate pentahydrate), the most commonly used form of copper for aquaculture. However, before you use copper or any other chemical or drug, be sure to review local, state, and federal regulations and guidelines for legalities regarding application and discharge of the treated water.”

Again same thing as the previous article posted. Nothing in long term that I see chelated being used. And copper power claims it’s 60% less toxic vs ionic.

If the risk is organ and gill failure how has that been studied in chelated? Vs ionic? I even give my fish a quick gill inspection being that is the most common place where issues will show along side fast breathing.


And let’s be real here, some that cry about copper causing harm, are also possibly dosing chemicals in their DT’s one that comes to mind is phosphate-e. Yes let’s get lanthanum going in our tanks. I’m also guilty of it recently. Not going to say do it or don’t (po4-e doing that is or lanthanum) but my two yellows, having dosed it three times, started showing issues. I stopped instantly and did some good ol WC’s and did Rowa Phos in a reactor, fish are now recovering and getting colored up real nice. And I feed quality foods, with not many fillers as some on this forum have seen me write on quality foods. But it was still not enough because of the chemicals I decided to dose.

I’m the person if you make a back it up. That’s all. And for me, my back up is simple. Copper Power works, and gave me a disease free tank. And no second guessing with what if’s. And I see right here on this thread the guys talking about even velvet. And how it took down their tank because of not QT’ing. So I will ask this is velvet curable with copper power, copper safe at 2.25ppm?

Once again this is about Chelated why is it so hard for people to understand how harsh copper can be . Wither its chelated copper or copper sulfate . Yes chelated is less Toxic but it’s still toxic.

 

[winxp_man]

That is part of my point about just anyone dosing with out the proper equipment for testing and the knowledge.

That’s a given in anything reef related.

Testing and knowing what to do. That is the reason many posts here, to new members reef world, have to do with statements of patients and proper research. Sadly that is not alway some do before getting into this. Then, when the crazy hits them, they come asking for help here.

 

[winxp_man]

Once again this is about Chelated why is it so hard for people to understand how harsh copper can be . Wither its chelated copper or copper sulfate . Yes chelated is less Toxic but it’s still toxic.

Why is it hard for you understand that we have ways to measure copper levels super accurately?

It’s literally in the highlighted area of your post, excessive levels of copper which many of us here know about, and it’s funny they say prolonged exposure. What does that entail? Just because it a AI response does not make it right or factual info. Again what is prolonged, what issues is this post referring to? Organ failure? Gill failure? I really do hate broad statements like this. They don’t mean anything without evidence. What is the evidence?? So far I only see the it’s copper sulfate that is being discussed even in the articles posted. That does not fly with me! Sorry you will never make me a believer with such posts!

What I see for chelated is a broad statement because once again the word copper is used in the same sentence.

Call it what you want if you read my initial post, so I don’t have to retype the whole thing, you will see my success with even piles of fish in one large QT system. So am I wrong or the board statement that copper “harms” fish. Okay fine it harms fish. Prove it. Show me the evidence once again. Not cool to keep yapping our heads off without proper evidence of so called copper issues. And can we please compare apples to apples.

Have seen plenty that we know is one way for doing things correctly in the reef world, then AI says otherwise and people end up killing their tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Velvet and Brook are both active so doesn’t take long for it to show up , uronema and ich can be both that is brought out by stress . There have been several recent reefer that have effectively treated both in tank with H202 dosing with no ill effect to inverts , coral or the rest of the tank . Most people don’t have microscopes to take skins scrapes for uronema and formalin is a harsh treatment and is toxic to fish and humans .

I strongly caution people not to use formalin.

Inter-cellular Uronema isn’t treatable by baths, those don’t go down into the tissue where the protozoans reside. External Uronema responds to formalin, but I only see external Uronema on seahorses and seadragons, it is likely a different species. I’ve used chloroquine to control Uronema in vitro, but again, it doesn’t hit the internal version.

Here is a reprint of my 2010 article on Uronema;
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/uronema-red-band-disease-hemdal.788/

 

[me & my baby]

Why is it hard for you understand that we have ways to measure copper levels super accurately?

It’s literally in the highlighted area of your post, excessive levels of copper which many of us here know about, and it’s funny they say prolonged exposure. What does that entail? Just because it a AI response does not make it right or factual info. Again what is prolonged, what issues is this post referring to? Organ failure? Gill failure? I really do hate broad statements like this. They don’t mean anything without evidence. What is the evidence?? So far I only see the it’s copper sulfate that is being discussed even in the articles posted. That does not fly with me! Sorry you will never make me a believer with such posts!

What I see for chelated is a broad statement because once again the word copper is used in the same sentence.

Call it what you want if you read my initial post, so I don’t have to retype the whole thing, you will see my success with even piles of fish in one large QT system. So am I wrong or the board statement that copper “harms” fish. Okay fine it harms fish. Prove it. Show me the evidence once again. Not cool to keep yapping our heads off without proper evidence of so called copper issues. And can we please compare apples to apples.

Have seen plenty that we know is one way for doing things correctly in the reef world, then AI says otherwise and people end up killing their tank.

You are like talking to a brick wall . Just because you have the correct tools doesn’t mean everyone that is treating with copper does . The studies I posted stated copper side effect not chelated copper not just copper sulfate it said COPPER . Was the article mostly about copper sulfate yes it was . Did it talk about chelated copper yes it did but the part of side effect was about COPPER that’s it just copper side effects . You say there is no proof of chelated copper harming fish where is your proof it doesn’t . Where are your scientific papers proving that . You honestly believe that with these fish setting In copper at the wholesaler which I have seen first hand and then getting put into copper at the fish store which you know they do then being put into copper in qt for 30 days does not have any effect on the fish . If you honestly believe that I have a bridge for sale . Yes zoos , public aquariums use copper but they are not getting the same fish we get . There fish are specifically collected for them from there natural environment with great care . I used to know the director of one of the world’s largest public aquariums . I also got to spend time with the guy that did the aquarium at the Golden Nugget casino in Vegas . I watched the whole building of it and spent time with him while I was remolding the casino . There are not getting local fishermen collected them anyway they can then getting placed in unsanitary conditions then shipped multiple times then land in a wholesale facility then sent to your local fish store or online vendor . I have had the fortune to have spent time in many fish wholesalers from Miami, Atlanta and in California I have seen these places first hand and have seen the conditions these fish come in and on how they are housed . I have also had the fortune to have been in multiple stores crossed the entire US and 90% of the stores kept there fish in low levels of copper to help suppress diseases . I have said what I have to say I am done . I have made my point and you are still running around in circles claiming there is no profit when in fact there is .

 

[me & my baby]

I strongly caution people not to use formalin.

Inter-cellular Uronema isn’t treatable by baths, those don’t go down into the tissue where the protozoans reside. External Uronema responds to formalin, but I only see external Uronema on seahorses and seadragons, it is likely a different species. I’ve used chloroquine to control Uronema in vitro, but again, it doesn’t hit the internal version.

Here is a reprint of my 2010 article on Uronema;
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/uronema-red-band-disease-hemdal.788/

I will read your article

 

[winxp_man]

You are like talking to a brick wall . Just because you have the correct tools doesn’t mean everyone that is treating with copper does .

Your post is moot because why there are protocols posted here just to avoid such issues.

And asking for more evidence on such a subject where many post info that is out dated because of newer methods makes me a person that’s like talkin to a brick wall?

Okay I will go observe only. Let’s just ban copper. Again you did not even come close to answering my questions in regards to the articles you linked. Did you see my post from the article literally that the subject was not chelated copper.

Here is the quote again from the article posted. NOT me saying this but in the quote. Also you’re telling me ionic copper is the same as chelated? Is that your stance with your post here??

The quire from the article you posted to me.

“This publication will concentrate on the use of "bluestone" or "blue copperas" copper sulfate (CuSO4 •5H2O; i.e., copper sulfate pentahydrate), the most commonly used form of copper for aquaculture.”

Is this your definition of chelated? Last I checked it’s literally in the article that chelated has additives that make it less toxic. Copper Power is said to be 60% less toxic. So show my the studies on said subject and let’s keep it apples to apples. You’re literally stating that all antibiotics are the same. Haha. There is gram point of sale, and gram neg. Not all are the same.

The fact you keep saying some people don’t have this or that is my point exactly why the medical section of this form exists. It’s to get the correct info out there for new people that don’t understand QR. I will post a video I made not long ago see if you can answer the question I mention in it. And it will show you the proof it works. Again the evidence is in the countless people I see here do it correctly and save fish and have a healthy tank once done correctly. Vs dead fish if the disease is caught in time.



EDIT:

I stand corrected if it wasn’t you that posted this.

I saw it here in the last couple of pages as a response to me if I’m recalling correctly. Hard to flip through it all on a phone vs computer.

https://ask.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA165

 

[13rodo]

Why is it hard for you understand that we have ways to measure copper levels super accurately?

You've been dismissive and outright disrespectful to other forum members.

Saw you liked this... guess it's ok to be dismissive and outright disrespectful to other member as long as they are part of Jay's fan club, huh @Fish Fan? Practice what you preach.

@me & my baby Not worth it amigo. Happy reefing.