Rare fish QT process log

[redacted_]

Recently imported some centerpiece fish that I am quite excited about! I got 5 Neptune groupers, 3 Koi tangs, and a bunch of Helmet Picassos from Indonesia. I just wanted to make a thread documenting the entire QT process.

Here's my game plan:
- Condition for a few days
- Praziquantel 24h, FW dip + move tanks, then wait 2 days
- Levamisole 24h then move tanks then wait 3 days
- Praziquantel 24h, FW dip + move tanks, then wait 2 days
- Levamisole 24h, move tanks, then wait 2 days
- Condition for a few days
- Chloroquine phosphate @ 15ppm with tank transfers every 4-5 days for a total of at least 15 days

Infectious helminths, or worms, come in two major flavors in the marine world: flatworms and nematodes. Praziquantel targets the former, while levamisole targets the latter. There are some other worms such as Acanthocephala or Pentastomida, but they are so uncommon that their common names usually mean nothing. The FW dip helps get rid of flukes that might have remained attached.

Besides the worms, the only other extremely deadly diseases are ich, velvet, and brook. Each of these are susceptible to chloroquine phosphate.

However, besides brook, all of the other diseases are immune to their respective medications in their egg or cyst stage. This means that if you do not do at least one tank transfer, eggs or cysts can remain unhatched and reinfect your fish down the line. I learned this the hard way when I tried doing a two week course of chloroquine without changing tanks. Every fish ended up being reinfected a month later. On a side note, copper and chloroquine both only kill non-cyst stages of ich and velvet, so I suspect that the hobby arrived at the 30 day number because people were accidentally letting cysts hatch. It should theoretically be possible to shorten copper to two weeks by doing a tank transfer or two in the middle.

The idea behind spacing praziquantel and levamisole as I did is to not only reduce the metabolic load from the medications, but also lower any existing disease burden as much as possible by breaking the lifecyles through tank transfers. This is because even with medication, reinfection is not guaranteed to be completely prevented. None of these drugs immediately kill, so its entirely possible that something is able to reattach even with the medication present.

 

[Fish Fan]

I think this is a great question for the R2R #fishmedic experts

 

[redacted_]

I think this is a great question for the R2R #fishmedic experts

Any comments welcome!

 

[Fish Fan]

Any comments welcome!

Give them some time, I'm sure they'll see this

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Any comments welcome!

I would put the anti-protozoan treatment before the antihelmenthics. Protozoans always kill faster than metazoans will.

I’m not a fan of chloroquine, although I wrote a paper on it years ago, I ran into some acute toxicity issues at higher doses, and wasn’t able to control active Cryptocaryon at levels less than 20 mg/l.

None of the fish you listed would have any difficulty with amine-chelated copper.

I don’t routinely use levamisole, but if you know that these species (I’ve not worked with Neptune groupers) are prone to nematodes, it would be helpful.

 

[W31Olds]

I agree with Jay. Why treat for Flukes first? I would also not wait for them to "Condition" as none of these fish are difficult feeders. A couple of other things I would probably consider.
1. The Groupers can probably see each other and may ram the glass so maybe place some cardboard between the tanks.
2. Because the Tanks are close you may have biosecurity problems.
3. You may want to separate some of the Clowns. I noticed that one looks to be struggling.

 

[redacted_]

I would put the anti-protozoan treatment before the antihelmenthics. Protozoans always kill faster than metazoans will.

I’m not a fan of chloroquine, although I wrote a paper on it years ago, I ran into some acute toxicity issues at higher doses, and wasn’t able to control active Cryptocaryon at levels less than 20 mg/l.

None of the fish you listed would have any difficulty with amine-chelated copper.

I don’t routinely use levamisole, but if you know that these species (I’ve not worked with Neptune groupers) are prone to nematodes, it would be helpful.

Thanks for the comments.

The ordering is mostly for metabolic reasons. Praziquantel and levamisole are cleared much faster (days to weeks) than chloroquine metabolites (months). However, I do agree that marine protists do all kill much faster.

I highly suspect that chloroquine is being degraded without people knowing. I've had success at 10-15 mg/L, but the sample progressively gets more toxic. The first time I used it, I accidentally went up to 60mg/L. The fish were very lethargic, but fine for two weeks. However, as I kept it in my fridge/freezer it must have been degrading because later even 10mg/L would cause the fish to die overnight. I purchased a fresh pack and then things went swimmingly. I am wondering if there might be trace metals left from the synthesis process that catalyze reactions once the package is opened. Every fish vendor seems to source from National Fish Pharm.

I am also using chloroquine over copper because copper will not kill brooklynella. The levamisole is just something precautionary.

 

[redacted_]

I agree with Jay. Why treat for Flukes first? I would also not wait for them to "Condition" as none of these fish are difficult feeders. A couple of other things I would probably consider.
1. The Groupers can probably see each other and may ram the glass so maybe place some cardboard between the tanks.
2. Because the Tanks are close you may have biosecurity problems.
3. You may want to separate some of the Clowns. I noticed that one looks to be struggling.

It is mostly for metabolic reasons. Chloroquine can be harsh if it starts degrading. Praziquantel and levamisole have half lives of days, while chloroquine's metabolites are months.

I have the 5 groupers in 3 tanks and they seem to be mostly getting along. However, they just landed from a 2-3 day transit from Indonesia so they might just be fine for now. 3 of them ate this morning

Very cognizant of the last two, I previously had two fish from a very large captive breeding vendor that came with ich and velvet. This ended up spreading to multiple of my tanks in the room. I plan on treating everything in the room all at once so the aerosol risk is completely removed.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the comments.

The ordering is mostly for metabolic reasons. Praziquantel and levamisole are cleared much faster (days to weeks) than chloroquine metabolites (months). However, I do agree that marine protists do all kill much faster.

I highly suspect that chloroquine is being degraded without people knowing. I've had success at 10-15 mg/L, but the sample progressively gets more toxic. The first time I used it, I accidentally went up to 60mg/L. The fish were very lethargic, but fine for two weeks. However, as I kept it in my fridge/freezer it must have been degrading because later even 10mg/L would cause the fish to die overnight. I purchased a fresh pack and then things went swimmingly. I am wondering if there might be trace metals left from the synthesis process that catalyze reactions once the package is opened. Every fish vendor seems to source from National Fish Pharm.

I am also using chloroquine over copper because copper will not kill brooklynella. The levamisole is just something precautionary.

Brooklynella is so rare that I don’t treat for it unless I’m working with wild caught clownfish.

If you have t seen it, here is my chloroquine paper from before I ran into the toxicity issues.

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

 

[redacted_]

Brooklynella is so rare that I don’t treat for it unless I’m working with wild caught clownfish.

If you have t seen it, here is my chloroquine paper from before I ran into the toxicity issues.

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Unfortunately I haven't been as lucky. I've had brooklynella come in from tank bred fish from very large names, so I am a bit paranoid.

Thanks for sharing that article you wrote. I use a UV-Vis as well to validate chromophore concentration. The only thing is that its very hard to measure purity using a UV-Vis since the breakdown products likely have similar chromophores, so the spectra might not change much. pH also has a pronounced effect on the spectra. I would really like to see somebody get some HPLC data but I don't have access to that.

Here's some trial data from a sample that didn't have any negative response from clownfish and dwarf angels at 15-20ppm. The spectra are exact multiples of each other and consistent with the serial dilution, but were not exact multiples for spectra I found online. I don't know what pH they used or what mine was though. I haven't gotten a chance to measure the sample that caused a bad response yet, but I am going to do so before starting these guys to see if its incredibly obvious.

I also once accidentally left a few dozen ppm of hydrogen peroxide in my RODI bucket. After I dosed chloroquine, it produced similar behavior in clownfish to degraded samples I've had in the past.

 

[redacted_]

Update: I've managed to see four of the five Neptunes eating, but the koi tangs don't seem to have touched any of the nori or chaeto I put in their tanks. Its still the first day, but the neptunes seem to be quite social. They're often hanging out on the same side of the tank. No aggression so far except during feeding


Some of the Neptunes were flashing today, so I've decided to start dosing praziquantel. Tomorrow I will heed to @W31Olds advice and separate the clownfish into two tanks

 

[Biff0rz]

Impressive haul of fi$$$$$$$h. I wish you the best of luck, but they all look great so far!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Unfortunately I haven't been as lucky. I've had brooklynella come in from tank bred fish from very large names, so I am a bit paranoid.

Thanks for sharing that article you wrote. I use a UV-Vis as well to validate chromophore concentration. The only thing is that its very hard to measure purity using a UV-Vis since the breakdown products likely have similar chromophores, so the spectra might not change much. pH also has a pronounced effect on the spectra. I would really like to see somebody get some HPLC data but I don't have access to that.

Here's some trial data from a sample that didn't have any negative response from clownfish and dwarf angels at 15-20ppm. The spectra are exact multiples of each other and consistent with the serial dilution, but were not exact multiples for spectra I found online. I don't know what pH they used or what mine was though. I haven't gotten a chance to measure the sample that caused a bad response yet, but I am going to do so before starting these guys to see if its incredibly obvious.

I also once accidentally left a few dozen ppm of hydrogen peroxide in my RODI bucket. After I dosed chloroquine, it produced similar behavior in clownfish to degraded samples I've had in the past.

Ozone has been implicated in breaking down chloroquine, so it makes sense that peroxide would as well.

I have not heard of any studies that indicate that the metabolites of chloroquine being broken down by bacteria are toxic, even the UV exposure noted by Tiffany Adams, where the water turned murky brown, wasn't noted to be associated with higher mortality. Have you found any?

 

[redacted_]

Ozone has been implicated in breaking down chloroquine, so it makes sense that peroxide would as well.

I have not heard of any studies that indicate that the metabolites of chloroquine being broken down by bacteria are toxic, even the UV exposure noted by Tiffany Adams, where the water turned murky brown, wasn't noted to be associated with higher mortality. Have you found any?

I haven't tried UV+chloroquine in a tank with fish, but I used to do that before flushing medicated water down the drain. The water did turn brown in those scenarios.

In the times where I experienced mortality from dosing chloroquine, the water looked clear and the only indication that something was off was from the fish's behavior or death. I've lost quite a lot of fish due to what I believe is old chloroquine powder. I now avoid using metal spoons and store everything double bagged with a desiccant in the freezer.

With new chloroquine, the water does sometimes turn cloudy and fish do look more lethargic, but I do not know if that is due to prolonged exposure or whether the metabolites produced are toxic.

I have also lost a pair of previously quite healthy clownfish the next morning after a RODI dip during tank transfer with fresh chloroquine. The same chloroquine was fine for other clownfish and a group of Centropyge right after. I don't know whether there is a correlation there

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I haven't tried UV+chloroquine in a tank with fish, but I used to do that before flushing medicated water down the drain. The water did turn brown in those scenarios.

In the times where I experienced mortality from dosing chloroquine, the water looked clear and the only indication that something was off was from the fish's behavior or death. I've lost quite a lot of fish due to what I believe is old chloroquine powder. I now avoid using metal spoons and store everything double bagged with a desiccant in the freezer.

With new chloroquine, the water does sometimes turn cloudy and fish do look more lethargic, but I do not know if that is due to prolonged exposure or whether the metabolites produced are toxic.

I have also lost a pair of previously quite healthy clownfish the next morning after a RODI dip during tank transfer with fresh chloroquine. The same chloroquine was fine for other clownfish and a group of Centropyge right after. I don't know whether there is a correlation there

Yes, I always store chloroquine in a freezer, in an air tight bag.

The water turning white cloudy is pretty typical of a first chloroquine treatment - I'm not sure if this is due to the chloroquine killing some bacteria, (counter-intuitive, because white-cloudy water is often due to a bacterial bloom) or if it is simply that the first dose of chloroquine in a tank kills off so much of the microbiome, that the existing nitrifiers are overwhelmed (and thus the ammonia rise that is so commonly seen).

You gave the fish a FW dip and then put them into a tank with chloroquine in it? I've never tried that. That could introduce some variable that I haven't considered.

 

[redacted_]

Yes, I always store chloroquine in a freezer, in an air tight bag.

The water turning white cloudy is pretty typical of a first chloroquine treatment - I'm not sure if this is due to the chloroquine killing some bacteria, (counter-intuitive, because white-cloudy water is often due to a bacterial bloom) or if it is simply that the first dose of chloroquine in a tank kills off so much of the microbiome, that the existing nitrifiers are overwhelmed (and thus the ammonia rise that is so commonly seen).

You gave the fish a FW dip and then put them into a tank with chloroquine in it? I've never tried that. That could introduce some variable that I haven't considered.

Personally, I suspect it is due to chloroquine killing protists that feed on the bacteria.

I previously had an outbreak of "internal uronema" in a bunch of Centropyge, and chloroquine at 20ppm seemed to make things worse. I previously noticed chloroquine would sometimes cause outbreaks of heavy bacterial mucus at higher concentrations, so I had an inkling of this at the back of my mind already (though I suspect this is due to immune suppression). I switched to an amphiphilic antibiotic and was able to cure the remaining Centropyge from "internal uronema" developing further.

Chloroquine concentration goes to zero after around a week because bacteria that metabolize it establish. It is the same as Praziquantel, which I think you noted that in another thread. The fish had seen 5 days of chloroquine, RODI dip, then transferred to a new tank with same concentration of chloroquine. I did this at night, and the next morning both fish had died, despite being very healthy before. My hypothesis is that because chloroquine partitions heavily out of plasma and into tissue, there was a large reservoir of the chemical that was brought out by osmotic shock messing with membranes.

 

[redacted_]

Impressive haul of fi$$$$$$$h. I wish you the best of luck, but they all look great so far!

Thanks! I do it for a love for the hobby. Beautiful and rare fish will naturally also be pricey, but thats always secondary haha

 

[redacted_]

Tank transfer 1 and saline dip done last night! Finished draining the tanks this morning. Will clear and sterilize the tanks in a bit. The clownfish into two tanks. I gave the groupers some more hiding spots but they seem to prefer being next to each other rather than finding their own crevice so I haven't separated them yet.