Reliability, prices and quality..

[atoll]

Ecotech MP40s with website magnets rusting just one example of once quality equipment failing before the much cheaper Chinese equivalent. We have much cheaper Chinese lights as good as the much more expensive brands.

Not just reliability but VFM with cheaper alternatives costing around 1/3rd of the equivalent high end pumps. Jebao in particular seem to be leading the way for both.

I have a jebao return.pump which has been running for 6 years without a problem. A jebao gyre 4 years. A jebao pump feeding my ATS 6 years. All for around a third of the much more expensive brands.

I don't mind paying a little extra for quality but where is the difference? We're is the value for money? With 3 times the price for something performing just as well is a hard pill to swallow.

I was talking to the joint owner of the UK distributor last week, a well known brand that I won't divulge. I was told the Chinese pumps etc are taking away a lot of sales from them. Is there any wonder and. And It's not just the here today gone tomorrow hobbiests either that are buying cheaper Chinese products.

Something needs to give and for me and many I suspect there will be no more Ecotech etc for me I'm afraid.

 

[Tahoe61]

I buy what I can afford. If I can get a comparable product for less in this very expensive hobby I will. Research is key.
It's a buyer beware market, do your research, make a plan and get what you want and can comfortably afford.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I'm not sure it is exactly a strong 'China/not China' distinction in general unless the examples are chosen to fit that conclusion. I'd personally lean toward trying to draw a distinction between companies owned by reefkeeper-types and those owned by investment groups or larger more general corporations (not only because there are very clear longitudinal observations of quality shifts to illustrate the point). There's definitely not an equivalence between retail price and quality (however a person judges quality), I agree.

It is worth thinking about what would be expected to happen to the availability of novel products in the future if enough buyers shift to buying knockoff products. At least some of the price difference, I would suspect, comes from skipping R&D and initial release marketing and instead just making a clone of an existing product -- but that cloning needs an existing established product to clone.

Another issue: looking through the sponsor list here, it looks like the ratio of 'more expensive brands' to 'cheaper Chinese equivalent' brands is about a bunch to zero. That's a little cost savings as well for the seller, though that's not without downstream effects. Comparing a range of forums with extensive sponsorship income to others is enlightening; I don't think it is a coincidence that R2R is oddly much stronger than other forums in the animal hobbies area that mostly just run Google ads or are owned by a larger corporation.

'Value for money' depends a lot on what a person values, and if a person only values factors that affect them personally, directly and immediately, they're missing some valuable stuff that they haven't thought about but probably should. That's a pretty standard observation of the human condition, of course.

 

[areefer01]

Ecotech MP40s with website magnets rusting just one example of once quality equipment failing before the much cheaper Chinese equivalent. We have much cheaper Chinese lights as good as the much more expensive brands.

Not just reliability but VFM with cheaper alternatives costing around 1/3rd of the equivalent high end pumps. Jebao in particular seem to be leading the way for both.

I have a jebao return.pump which has been running for 6 years without a problem. A jebao gyre 4 years. A jebao pump feeding my ATS 6 years. All for around a third of the much more expensive brands.

I don't mind paying a little extra for quality but where is the difference? We're is the value for money? With 3 times the price for something performing just as well is a hard pill to swallow.

I was talking to the joint owner of the UK distributor last week, a well known brand that I won't divulge. I was told the Chinese pumps etc are taking away a lot of sales from them. Is there any wonder and. And It's not just the here today gone tomorrow hobbiests either that are buying cheaper Chinese products.

Something needs to give and for me and many I suspect there will be no more Ecotech etc for me I'm afraid.

As with many products. cars, trucks, or lodging your experience is one out of N. Do not mean that as a negative only that there are similar users of the other brands you noted as expensive with success and failures of the knock offs.

One thing that always crosses my mind is that who is more likely to post on a forum. One with a complaint, negative experience, or who feels slighted or that of one without any trouble? The squeaky wheel gets the grease...

 

[atoll]

As with many products. cars, trucks, or lodging your experience is one out of N. Do not mean that as a negative only that there are similar users of the other brands you noted as expensive with success and failures of the knock offs.

One thing that always crosses my mind is that who is more likely to post on a forum. One with a complaint, negative experience, or who feels slighted or that of one without any trouble? The squeaky wheel gets the grease...

In that case, why is there more complaints on forums about ecotech wave makers than the cheap Jebao? I would also suggest Jabo sell more pumps than Ecotech and then we even have rebadged Jebao pumps like the TMC ones. The old saying you get what you pay for is far from always the case.

 

[areefer01]

In that case, why is there more complaints on forums about ecotech wave makers than the cheap Jebao? I would also suggest Jabo sell more pumps than Ecotech and then we even have rebadged Jebao pumps like the TMC ones.

Are there? Do you know the installation base numbers to correlate the two? I know I don't. My point was to ask who is more likely to post. Someone with a negative experience or one with no problems and a positive experience? The silent majority...

The old saying you get what you pay for is far from always the case.

I personally have no opinion on this - we all have reasons to run what we are.

 

[atoll]

Are there? Do you know the installation base numbers to correlate the two? I know I don't. My point was to ask who is more likely to post. Someone with a negative experience or one with no problems and a positive experience? The silent majority...



I personally have no opinion on this - we all have reasons to run what we are.

The people with negative experiences of course but that goes for both.
Of course I don't have the figures for each company. I just believe that cheaper means more which goes for many things not just aquarium equipment.
The nearest you would get to an idea would be to ask an LFS who sells both which are the biggest sellers. My m8ney would be on Jebao pumps.
I would also wager the majority of marine fish keepers aren't on this forum but I can't substantiate that either.

 

[rtparty]

Who is going to complain when the pump was 1/3 the price and they know going in there is no customer service? Look around and see how many also play the system and just have Amazon handle CS for Chinese stuff that fails

Paying 4x amount and then raising a fuss on social media is a clear path to get help for some.

Everyone who likes Jebao should actually be rooting for the other companies. It’s the other companies doing all the R&D for companies like Jebao to ripoff

 

[areefer01]

Everyone who likes Jebao should actually be rooting for the other companies. It’s the other companies doing all the R&D for companies like Jebao to ripoff

Come on, there is no IP theft /wink

 

[Freenow54]

Ecotech MP40s with website magnets rusting just one example of once quality equipment failing before the much cheaper Chinese equivalent. We have much cheaper Chinese lights as good as the much more expensive brands.

Not just reliability but VFM with cheaper alternatives costing around 1/3rd of the equivalent high end pumps. Jebao in particular seem to be leading the way for both.

I have a jebao return.pump which has been running for 6 years without a problem. A jebao gyre 4 years. A jebao pump feeding my ATS 6 years. All for around a third of the much more expensive brands.

I don't mind paying a little extra for quality but where is the difference? We're is the value for money? With 3 times the price for something performing just as well is a hard pill to swallow.

I was talking to the joint owner of the UK distributor last week, a well known brand that I won't divulge. I was told the Chinese pumps etc are taking away a lot of sales from them. Is there any wonder and. And It's not just the here today gone tomorrow hobbiests either that are buying cheaper Chinese products.

Something needs to give and for me and many I suspect there will be no more Ecotech etc for me I'm afraid.

well that is exactly what the evil Chinese are banking on. seen the price of their ev cars ? when they bury the competition look out

 

[skey44]

I wonder how many newer ecotech products are rusting on the wetside? I have had very good luck with eheim, tunze, sicce, and ecotech thus far for pumps over years. Ecotech seems to always make running improvements over time on products. I would be more likely to complain of an ecotech failure though because of the cost I paid hoping to get more for the money. I recently got a Jebao dcp 6500 for my frag tank and I’m very happy thus far.
Not an ecotech snob, just not sure we can equate some vocal failures to more failure. I’m not getting rid of my ecotech stuff, but my backups may end up being Jebao is this new return pump keeps bing a star performer. The first DCP pump I tried was a dud and sent it back because of the disappointing performance which led me to buy an ecotech vectra. Now this second return pump is working great. Makes me question the QC for Jebao.

 

[Freenow54]

I wonder how many newer ecotech products are rusting on the wetside? I have had very good luck with eheim, tunze, sicce, and ecotech thus far for pumps over years. Ecotech seems to always make running improvements over time on products. I would be more likely to complain of an ecotech failure though because of the cost I paid hoping to get more for the money. I recently got a Jebao dcp 6500 for my frag tank and I’m very happy thus far.
Not an ecotech snob, just not sure we can equate some vocal failures to more failure. I’m not getting rid of my ecotech stuff, but my backups may end up being Jebao is this new return pump keeps bing a star performer. The first DCP pump I tried was a dud and sent it back because of the disappointing performance which led me to buy an ecotech vectra. Now this second return pump is working great. Makes me question the QC for Jebao.

Vectra is my choice longevity there

 

[atoll]

I do have a Tunze wavemaker pump, their pumps all come with a 5 year guarantee. The ecotech MP40 comes with a ....1 year guarantee, confident in their product hey

 

[naldo]

Chinese knockoff have come a long way, I own a super clone rolex

 

[Marco_99]

In that case, why is there more complaints on forums about ecotech wave makers than the cheap Jebao? I would also suggest Jabo sell more pumps than Ecotech and then we even have rebadged Jebao pumps like the TMC ones. The old saying you get what you pay for is far from always the case.

For starters this thread has so many arms to it that it is all just discussions within discussions. I think the first thing you can do is split this hobby into two categories. The nano or small tank world vs the larger system world. Both these users are likely to have different experiences and deal in different equipment.

To your question as why you don’t hear about a Jebao pump failure as frequently as an Ecotech? For one people that buy cheap, expect cheap. If your cheap pump cashed out you were probably already anticipating that at some point. If you buy quality and it fails at any point you likely were expecting almost bulletproof, that’s what you paid for in your mind.

Forums are filled with obsessed expert level hobbyist. These people tend to go all in on what they are doing so most likely a vast majority will be higher end equipment, these people have been around the block a time or two. Timmy at home buying a Jebao on Amazon for his Petco 20 gal and his 2 clowns you’ll likely never cross his path or hear about his Jebao experience. The whole tank likely folded in a month and a half and back to basketball practice he went.

A brand like Ecotech fetches the price they ask because they just work. Period. Everyone has a personal opinion as to what they feel is value for their money but facts are facts. You see it daily here the hate for Ecotech lights and the only reason ever stated is because they cost too much lol. I never hear a concrete reason why they are actually bad light, besides, they just cost too much for what they are lol. What they are is proven and just flat work.

Back to your magnet comment. Sure you will hear about a few out of the hundreds of thousands sold and in use, that will happen with any product. Again you’re on a forum where most own said product and having something expensive fail hurts most anyone so you’ll likely hear about it. Most of those situations always go deeper into other factors, but some don’t. Everything mechanical or anything around this hobby is going to only function so long, neglect and a whole host of other factors will severely diminish your returns and experience.

Last you have the cost argument. This is just basic common sense. Anything 100% Chinese made is going to beat the brakes off any other country lol. If you want to support that, that’s fine. Are their products better? No. Do their products satisfy most people in getting the job done for their cost? Yes.

Another arm into this conversation is just comparing this product vs this product, and their prices. Price aside, let’s look behind behind the curtain at some stuff. How available is it? Are there parts for it? Is it serviceable? How readily available are the parts? How available is the product? What’s the Warranty like? Do they back their warranty? What’s the customer service like? What’s the company like? Where is the company located? What are the quality of the parts? What are the first hand real world experiences like? Will they or have they been in business long term for foreseeing ongoing support? Overall track record? Resale value? Dependability? How compatible is it for connecting into other systems? What’s the user interface like? What styles and models do they offer for what range of situations? Is it a company constantly developing and progressing their products or innovating new products?
This can go on and on but the short answer is you truly get what you pay for. If something fits your wallet and needs that’s what should matter. There will always be high end, middle ground, and cheap. To put Ecotech in the same conversation as Jebao is laughable. You can’t even start to have a fair comparison once you pull the curtain back, there is a lot that goes into how they got to that price.
Overall everything in the world is decreasing in quality, service, experience. We as people have changed and our products directly reflect that.

The real elephant in the room is thinking anything about this hobby is cheap. You see it all the time as being peddled budget friendly lol. HGTV ladies show you how to cheese a house together from Home Depot over a weekend as well. Anything can be budget friendly and your experience and outcome will likely follow over time. Most in this hobby are wadding around in multiple thousands of dollars invested. Expensive hobbies usually have expensive products, i mean that’s why it’s an expensive hobby to begin with, right? Lol

 

[NanoSteam]

I've owned one Ecotech product, the MP10 and never again, too finicky like an Italian car

I stick to Jebao or Tunze where I can afford it. I tried neros on my last tank and controllers on both gave one after another.

At least if it's a cheap Jebao I don't feel so bad or get upset if it breaks.

 

[atoll]

well that is exactly what the evil Chinese are banking on. seen the price of their ev cars ? when they bury the competition look out

Ecotech give a 1 year warranty on their products. Thats how confident they are in them
What do.you base yoyr assumption on?Japan took the motor industry by storm and they are no more expensive than the competition. However, what the Japanese motor industry did was to give the rest a kick up the backside and make them improve with better warranties and reliability. No bad thing hey?

 

[areefer01]

I do have a Tunze wavemaker pump, their pumps all come with a 5 year guarantee. The ecotech MP40 comes with a ....1 year guarantee, confident in their product hey

SICCE comes with 5. Abyzz 10. /shrug.

 

[Freenow54]

Ecotech give a 1 year warranty on their products. Thats how confident they are in them
What do.you base yoyr assumption on?Japan took the motor industry by storm and they are no more expensive than the competition. However, what the Japanese motor industry did was to give the rest a kick up the backside and make them improve with better warranties and reliability. No bad thing hey?

i used to read about High End Electronics in the music Industry. The Japanese were way behind people in Canada and the Us in their understanding of reproduction . Canada has a sound proof purposely designed sound room. I forget the proper name. Every one of the sound Engineers were lured away by big US manufacturers. As to motors al the RD they did was in their motor cycles then put int autos back in the 1980s

 

[atoll]

For starters this thread has so many arms to it that it is all just discussions within discussions. I think the first thing you can do is split this hobby into two categories. The nano or small tank world vs the larger system world. Both these users are likely to have different experiences and deal in different equipment.

To your question as why you don’t hear about a Jebao pump failure as frequently as an Ecotech? For one people that buy cheap, expect cheap. If your cheap pump cashed out you were probably already anticipating that at some point. If you buy quality and it fails at any point you likely were expecting almost bulletproof, that’s what you paid for in your mind.

Forums are filled with obsessed expert level hobbyist. These people tend to go all in on what they are doing so most likely a vast majority will be higher end equipment, these people have been around the block a time or two. Timmy at home buying a Jebao on Amazon for his Petco 20 gal and his 2 clowns you’ll likely never cross his path or hear about his Jebao experience. The whole tank likely folded in a month and a half and back to basketball practice he went.

A brand like Ecotech fetches the price they ask because they just work. Period. Everyone has a personal opinion as to what they feel is value for their money but facts are facts. You see it daily here the hate for Ecotech lights and the only reason ever stated is because they cost too much lol. I never hear a concrete reason why they are actually bad light, besides, they just cost too much for what they are lol. What they are is proven and just flat work.

Back to your magnet comment. Sure you will hear about a few out of the hundreds of thousands sold and in use, that will happen with any product. Again you’re on a forum where most own said product and having something expensive fail hurts most anyone so you’ll likely hear about it. Most of those situations always go deeper into other factors, but some don’t. Everything mechanical or anything around this hobby is going to only function so long, neglect and a whole host of other factors will severely diminish your returns and experience.

Last you have the cost argument. This is just basic common sense. Anything 100% Chinese made is going to beat the brakes off any other country lol. If you want to support that, that’s fine. Are their products better? No. Do their products satisfy most people in getting the job done for their cost? Yes.

Another arm into this conversation is just comparing this product vs this product, and their prices. Price aside, let’s look behind behind the curtain at some stuff. How available is it? Are there parts for it? Is it serviceable? How readily available are the parts? How available is the product? What’s the Warranty like? Do they back their warranty? What’s the customer service like? What’s the company like? Where is the company located? What are the quality of the parts? What are the first hand real world experiences like? Will they or have they been in business long term for foreseeing ongoing support? Overall track record? Resale value? Dependability? How compatible is it for connecting into other systems? What’s the user interface like? What styles and models do they offer for what range of situations? Is it a company constantly developing and progressing their products or innovating new products?
This can go on and on but the short answer is you truly get what you pay for. If something fits your wallet and needs that’s what should matter. There will always be high end, middle ground, and cheap. To put Ecotech in the same conversation as Jebao is laughable. You can’t even start to have a fair comparison once you pull the curtain back, there is a lot that goes into how they got to that price.
Overall everything in the world is decreasing in quality, service, experience. We as people have changed and our products directly reflect that.

The real elephant in the room is thinking anything about this hobby is cheap. You see it all the time as being peddled budget friendly lol. HGTV ladies show you how to cheese a house together from Home Depot over a weekend as well. Anything can be budget friendly and your experience and outcome will likely follow over time. Most in this hobby are wadding around in multiple thousands of dollars invested. Expensive hobbies usually have expensive products, i mean that’s why it’s an expensive hobby to begin with, right? Lol

Am not going to reply to all of that, quite frankly I can't be bothered, please forgive me.
However. Ecotech are so confident in their superior quality products they give a whole years guarantee. That at only 3 times the price of their very much cheaper Jebao competition.
At least Tunze give a 5 year guarantee and yes I also have Tunze equipment as well as jebao and an old Ecotech MP4. My MP40 is from back when the magnets didn't rust and the motors just went on and on as mine does. My MP40 is 8 to 10 years old. Am not exactly sure how old as I bought it secondhand.