Sailfin Tang Rapid Breathing

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hunterallen40

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I’m not sure why people have issues with wrasse and prazi, I never have, and I’ve dosed it many, many times. Prazipro, with good aeration (not just circulation) dosed to the actual water volume of the tank should be completely wrasse safe.
I don’t see any other option, since the wrasse was flashing also. There are other anti-fluke medications, but I’ve had more issues the few times I’ve used them.
Jay

Well, the first time the aeration was definitely added after the wrasse reappeared. I'll give them a few days, then I think I'll dose prazipro if things start looking down again, but I'll leave an airstone in there.
 
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hunterallen40

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Unfortunately things seem to be getting worse.

I tried a 1 hour paraguard bath this afternoon, hopefully that helps more than hurts. The product claims to be effective against flukes, velvet, ich, fin rot, and a few other parasitic/bacterial infections, so I figured it was worth a shot since the fresh water bath didn't help much.

He did just get out of the bath, so he's not 100% right now, but here's a video.


He's looking pretty desperate right now, and I'm really at a loss for what's affecting him so much.

Moreover, the wrasse didn't come out of the sand yesterday or today. Something's definitely making them unhappy.

0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, ~1ppm nitrate, 0.26 phosphate (currently trying to bring that down), pH is ~8.0-8.1, temperature is about 80°F, salinity is 35 ppt.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Sorry, I’m at my marina tonight and can’t get the video to play on my phone. I’m at a loss to suggest anything else to try.

Im not a big fan of paraguard, especially when used as a dip, I’ve never had it show any benefit when I’ve tried it on marine fish.

Jay
 
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DrZoidburg

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That is 3 different treatments in 13 days? Prazi >freshwater>Para? 3 different meds. Also don't see the "patch" in between his eyes any more in this new video. The only thing from rereading to get more normal breathing was the air stone after first treatment. All these 3 different treatments might really be stressing him out. Unknown if these meds will react or make each other stronger together. Did you do any water changes before dosing 2nd med? Back to the air stone and see what happens 5-7 days from last treatment. That is what I would try along with water change if you haven't.
 
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DrZoidburg

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Found old sds on paraguard "glutaraldehyde was mentioned, and malachite green" Glutaraldehyde alone can cause side affects of rapid breathing. I would avoid mixing medicines with out water change and time in between. Prazi will also react with other medications depending on which type will make it stronger or weaker.
 
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hunterallen40

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Hi,

Sorry if it wasn't clear... The paraguard treatment was an hour long dip, no meds were mixed. Before the bath we had done one treatment of paraguard, one freshwater dip, and several decent sized (20-ish percent) water changes.

The wrasse is out and about again, not sure why it was upset...

I treated the tank with prazipro yesterday, and things are looking a bit better today. I have an air stone in the sump, not sure if that's going to change the efficacy of the air stone, but I have the cabinet doors open to help fresh air get in there.


I'm not going to force him into another bath, for sure. My current plan is to just keep with the prazipro treatment with an air stone, do a good sized water change, treat with prazipro next Sunday, then do another good water change a few days later. I'll keep updating the thread in the meantime, though. Hopefully this will be useful to others.
 

Jay Hemdal

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An air stone in the tank itself is a bit more effective than in the sump. You can actually get “micro climates” in a tank where the dissolved oxygen is different, so you should always aerate the part of the tank where the fish are, as that is where the O2 is needed (plus it helps drive off CO2).

Jay
 
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hunterallen40

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Alright, time for an update.


The good news is the tang is still alive and eating. Unfortunately, the situation doesn't seem to have improved. I treated prazipro on the 13th, waited four days, and performed a few water changes over the next couple of days.

I then treated prazipro on the 20th, and did a couple good-sized water changes since.

Since the situation has not improved, I think I'm going to give the tang (and other inhabitants) a break and not treat the tank with prazipro again for the time being (as we've done four doses at this point).

I'm also starting to doubt it is flukes, since the other fish do not seem to be struggling at the moment, and everyone is still eating. Any other possibilities / things I can check?

Parameters:

pH: 7.86
Salinity: 35 ppt
ORP: 379
Temp: 77.8-78.5 F
dKh: 10.16
CA: ~450 ppm
Mg: ~1310 ppm
PO4: ~0.1 ppm
NO3: 0.05 ppm
 

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maybe i am overthinking it, the wrasse is breathing a bit hard as well. And the yawn is something to take into consideration. Did he just wake up by chance?
Does the sailfin hide from the light?
I know, this has been going on for almost a month. This is really strange.
 
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hunterallen40

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maybe i am overthinking it, the wrasse is breathing a bit hard as well. And the yawn is something to take into consideration. Did he just wake up by chance?

Yes, the wrasse did just wake up actually haha. Literally as I was pulling out my phone to record the tang.

What is a normal breathing rate for a melanurus wrasse? I can count later.


Does the sailfin hide from the light?

Yesterday the sailfin was doing a lot of hiding. Spent the majority of the day under one of the arches. When it came out it tended to do some darting / head shaking (and continuing to breathe rapidly).

Watching him today, the tang tends to position itself near the stream of a powerhead and just kind of hang out there for a bit, then goes and picks at algae. I haven't seen much of the rapid movement.

My wrasse seems to be doing the usual laps around the tank + picking at rocks, and my tassle file fish seems fine. Not much hiding, mostly swimming around or picking at algae.

Could this be something internal?
 

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Watching him today, the tang tends to position itself near the stream of a powerhead and just kind of hang out there for a bit, then goes and picks at algae. I haven't seen much of the rapid movement.
staying in high waterflow, hiding from light is a big sign of velvet. But, to have velvet for a month is unlikely.
There's a lot of either diatoms or cyano or both, all over the rocks. They could be using up all the oxygen.

It wasn't how often the wrasse was breathing, it was how heavy it looked. Like deep breaths. Since he just woke up it should calm down to a slower pace. I can't say how many gill beats per minute.
But, if he starts to hide from lights as well, I would guess velvet is on the rise.
If not, start removing unwanted cyano and algae's. Something is competing for oxygen.
 
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hunterallen40

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staying in high waterflow, hiding from light is a big sign of velvet. But, to have velvet for a month is unlikely.

Hm, yeah. I'll definitely keep an eye out for that. I'm not planning on doing anything for the time being (just due to the sheer amount of other treatments), but, if I do see evidence of velvet, my next move would be to move the fish to my quarantine tank, treat with copper, and give them a month or so, right?

There's a lot of either diatoms or cyano or both, all over the rocks. They could be using up all the oxygen.

Yes, definitely hair algae, cyano, and daitoms. We're full on ugly stage at the moment, but I'm working on getting that sorted out. I've got a UV sterilizer on the way, hoping that will help some with the bacterial problems.

Since everyone is eating, and it has been a month, I am most suspicious that this is the issue. My current plan is to make some saltwater tonight, change the filter socks, scrub the heck out of my rocks, change the socks again when I get up tomorrow morning, then do another really good scrub followed immediately by a water change. Does this seem like a reasonable plan while I wait for the UV to show up on Friday?
 
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Hm, yeah. I'll definitely keep an eye out for that. I'm not planning on doing anything for the time being (just due to the sheer amount of other treatments), but, if I do see evidence of velvet, my next move would be to move the fish to my quarantine tank, treat with copper, and give them a month or so, right?



Yes, definitely hair algae, cyano, and daitoms. We're full on ugly stage at the moment, but I'm working on getting that sorted out. I've got a UV sterilizer on the way, hoping that will help some with the bacterial problems.

Since everyone is eating, and it has been a month, I am most suspicious that this is the issue. My current plan is to make some saltwater tonight, change the filter socks, scrub the heck out of my rocks, change the socks again when I get up tomorrow morning, then do another really good scrub followed immediately by a water change. Does this seem like a reasonable plan while I wait for the UV to show up on Friday?
That's a good plan. GL. I hope everything gets sorted out and your sailfin gets some comfort.
 

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Alright, time for an update.


The good news is the tang is still alive and eating. Unfortunately, the situation doesn't seem to have improved. I treated prazipro on the 13th, waited four days, and performed a few water changes over the next couple of days.

I then treated prazipro on the 20th, and did a couple good-sized water changes since.

Since the situation has not improved, I think I'm going to give the tang (and other inhabitants) a break and not treat the tank with prazipro again for the time being (as we've done four doses at this point).

I'm also starting to doubt it is flukes, since the other fish do not seem to be struggling at the moment, and everyone is still eating. Any other possibilities / things I can check?

Parameters:

pH: 7.86
Salinity: 35 ppt
ORP: 379
Temp: 77.8-78.5 F
dKh: 10.16
CA: ~450 ppm
Mg: ~1310 ppm
PO4: ~0.1 ppm
NO3: 0.05 ppm
Have you examined the pH at all? What time of day are you getting a 7.86 reading? Does it fluctuate between morning and night? Are you comfortable with the calibration of your meter? I just want to rule out high carbon dioxide here….
Jay
 
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hunterallen40

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That pH is from shortly after my lights turned on. The pH comes from my Apex. I calibrated it properly, but don't know for 100% certain how good a measurement that is.

I'll do a check with my API test kit when I get home, but I'm happy to do other sanity checks if you know good ones.

Here's the last day:

1624982921372.png
 
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Alright, just finished the water change and have a new video for you.

I scrubbed the rocks, the glass, and stirred up the sand some. I pulled a good amount of slime out by hand, and did the sock change last night and this morning. Even accidentally fragged my monti .


Still looks quite undesirable, but definitely cleared up a good amount of funk.

I captured some of the dashing behavior I was referring to here. I also saw the tang scraping its gills on the rocks early this morning, but have not seen it since. Wrasse is not out of the sand yet, which is kinda strange, but I was moving stuff around last night and this morning so I'm hoping it's related to that.

Let me know what you guys think.
 
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