Shoddy Goods

[ScottF]

I just want to say that my random black box mp10 rip off works great for half the price.

Did you have to import it from China yourself? I would happily buy a fake MP40, but dealing with AliExpress or whoever to import it from China seems like a pain in the butt.

 

[ieatbugman]

Amazon, they have it all

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

This is an interesting take on current economics.
It used to be the consumer would chose a higher quality product and pay more. ( generally pre-import era) Folks would have less things, but what they would have would last, and would be considered "Durable Goods". Then at one point in combination of imports, such as cars and other offshore made items. Marketers figured out that if they lowered a price point, people would buy more product with full awareness that that product would not last as long, but since the price point was lower and imported, it was expected. The movement of quantity over quality gained an unstoppable momentum. Furthermore the buying public wanted a purchase point that stuck. Products may not last as long, but when they wore out or broke, they wanted to pay the same as they did before or they might chose a different brand.
I once worked in a bicycle shop and we sold the same model every year for the same price, the name was the same but the components got cheaper every year. People associated the brand with a certain quality. But in truth if you wanted to buy the same quality bicycle as you did a couple years before, you had to upgrade to a more expensive model.
There is no more "If you don't buy a product they will make it better" or "Tariffs will bring back American jobs". We are stuck as consumers with landfilling, earth polluting crap. One of the ways to bring back quality products is the ability for people to afford them. But the boards of directors are looking out for the interest of the stock holders, not the company they manage or the employees that work there. Most people with current business models are not your friend, unless they have something to gain from you.
That last paragraph sounded like a bunch of liberal whining, but it is true and it is a part of the equation. Not the whole part, it is simplified and there is so many other factors involved.
So in short, your stuck with crap.

 

[Imrahilwjz]

This is an interesting take on current economics.
It used to be the consumer would chose a higher quality product and pay more. ( generally pre-import era) Folks would have less things, but what they would have would last, and would be considered "Durable Goods". Then at one point in combination of imports, such as cars and other offshore made items. Marketers figured out that if they lowered a price point, people would buy more product with full awareness that that product would not last as long, but since the price point was lower and imported, it was expected. The movement of quantity over quality gained an unstoppable momentum. Furthermore the buying public wanted a purchase point that stuck. Products may not last as long, but when they wore out or broke, they wanted to pay the same as they did before or they might chose a different brand.
I once worked in a bicycle shop and we sold the same model every year for the same price, the name was the same but the components got cheaper every year. People associated the brand with a certain quality. But in truth if you wanted to buy the same quality bicycle as you did a couple years before, you had to upgrade to a more expensive model.
There is no more "If you don't buy a product they will make it better" or "Tariffs will bring back American jobs". We are stuck as consumers with landfilling, earth polluting crap. One of the ways to bring back quality products is the ability for people to afford them. But the boards of directors are looking out for the interest of the stock holders, not the company they manage or the employees that work there. Most people with current business models are not your friend, unless they have something to gain from you.
That last paragraph sounded like a bunch of liberal whining, but it is true and it is a part of the equation. Not the whole part, it is simplified and there is so many other factors involved.
So in short, your stuck with crap.

You have a valid point. I'm not sure it is always true though. One example of quality alternatives being available is in the trades. There is a marked difference in quality between homeowner grade and professional tools. Festool (Germany), snd Woodpecker Tools (United States), among others, make high grade tools that can last a lifetime if properly cared for, but again, there is a significant price increase to own those items.

 

[malacoda]

…. planned obsolescence.
(you can thank capitalism)

It would happen in any system. The only difference is 'how soon'...

Look at socialist countries past and present like USSR, the German Democratic Republic and Venezuela...

In those nations, which had socialist systems, the goods were shoddy right from the start. Why? Because the workers/owners never had any incentive to improve design or quality because they would never see any significant increase in their income from it. Only the 'state' would benefit.

At least with capitalism products go through cycles of innovation — invention ... dramatic improvement ... then minor improvement ... before reaching the final cycle of 'cheapening'. Then, when a true new, game-changing tech is invented the cycle repeats itself (i.e. steam engine, steel, combustion engine, vacuum tubes, computer chip, internet).

Back to the original topic though...

A) The more complicated a product becomes, the more expensive it becomes ... and the more potential points of failure it has.

B) In order to compete against a saturated market and inflation, eventually the only way to keep a product profitable is to cheapen its cost of manufacture.

So, yeah, in a nutshell, a lot of stuff is shoddier than it used to be. That's the part of the 'cycle' we're in right now for a LOT of products.

Vox just did a short video on it:

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

You have a valid point. I'm not sure it is always true though. One example of quality alternatives being available is in the trades. There is a marked difference in quality between homeowner grade and professional tools. Festool (Germany), snd Woodpecker Tools (United States), among others, make high grade tools that can last a lifetime if properly cared for, but again, there is a significant price increase to own those items.

Yes, you are correct. I was talking in general terms and trends of the market. Yes, there will always be exceptions to that. If the product has enough of a demand to satisfy the needs of the manufacturer. But unfortunately that percentage is small.

 

[Imrahilwjz]

Yes, you are correct. I was talking in general terms and trends of the market. Yes, there will always be exceptions to that. If the product has enough of a demand to satisfy the needs of the manufacturer. But unfortunately that percentage is small.

Too true

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

It would happen in any system. The only difference is 'how soon'...

Look at socialist countries past and present like USSR, the German Democratic Republic and Venezuela...

In those nations, which had socialist systems, the goods were shoddy right from the start. Why? Because the workers/owners never had any incentive to improve design or quality because they would never see any significant increase in their income from it. Only the 'state' would benefit.

At least with capitalism products go through cycles of innovation — invention ... dramatic improvement ... then minor improvement ... before reaching the final cycle of 'cheapening'. Then, when a true new, game-changing tech is invented the cycle repeats itself (i.e. steam engine, steel, combustion engine, vacuum tubes, computer chip, internet).

Back to the original topic though...

A) The more complicated a product becomes, the more expensive it becomes ... and the more potential points of failure it has.

B) In order to compete against a saturated market and inflation, eventually the only way to keep a product profitable is to cheapen its cost of manufacture.

So, yeah, in a nutshell, a lot of stuff is shoddier than it used to be. That's the part of the 'cycle' we're in right now for a LOT of products.

Vox just did a short video on it:

Interesting how the video touched on several points I made.

 

[areefer01]

Maybe you are looking at it wrong? The views are the opinions and/or experiences of the hobbyist behind the post. Their experiences do not represent that of others. Point being that two hobbyist can use the same piece of equipment and have opposite experiences. Neither negates the other.

One heck of a conundrum, yeah?

Another thing to consider is how many hobbyist posts that something is great or problem free? Compare that to how many posts when hobbyist fee slighted, ignored, or that they have been done wrong? More important how many of these posts do we hear what the root cause was along with the resolution? If any? Never user error always product(s) fault.

Without a doubt products have issues or bugs or faults. Doesn't matter if it is a controller, a light, a dishwasher, or Kia automobile. Human factor always plays a role just as oops does. All of this and I didn't even mention environmental such as installation and the mother of all, saltwater...

Hope your day is well.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

oh, one tip on the reefmat that I've been plugging - the default advance length for the fleece is generally very small, meaning the drive motor will have to cycle on and off very frequently. If you increase the advance length in the app, for example to the length of the bottom of the reef mat chamber, the motor will have to operate less frequently and theoretically last longer before burning out. Here's a short video guide I made for the motor replacement if it's helpful, I recommend playing at 1.5x or 2x speed and using the timestamps.

The other thing here to extend longevity is I remove the wasted roll at the halfway point. This takes the strain off the motor too. Also, don’t forget Red Sea will warranty replace the motor once in the first year. They don’t ask for anything but your serial number. Both of mine have spares :)

 

[malacoda]

Interesting how the video touched on several points I made.

Yeah man, I saw your post just after I finished mine and immediately thought to myself, 'TangerineSpeedo just nailed a key factor.'

 

[JonoH]

I always view the Reef Tank like my Boat - they both work in pretty hard and wearing enviornments (AKA Saltwater) - so its always going to be pretty taxing on gear.

In saying that, these are things designed for this purpose.
The only thing i have had go on my tank in the last year is the motor on the Reefmatt 1200 (was a 10 min change out)

 

[JonoH]

The other thing here to extend longevity is I remove the wasted roll at the halfway point. This takes the strain off the motor too. Also, don’t forget Red Sea will warranty replace the motor once in the first year. They don’t ask for anything but your serial number. Both of mine have spares :)

Not quite right - i just had mine replaced, and i had to supply videos and pictures also to prove it wasnt working. They also shipped it to my LFS where i purchased it, as i had to supply receipts of purchase also.

Probably from people asking for new motors un-neccesarily...

You can purchase spares fairly cheap though.

 

[Imrahilwjz]

Not quite right - i just had mine replaced, and i had to supply videos and pictures also to prove it wasnt working. They also shipped it to my LFS where i purchased it, as i had to supply receipts of purchase also.

Probably from people asking for new motors un-neccesarily...

You can purchase spares fairly cheap though.

On that note I have a used Bubble Magus Curve 7 that the pump failed in, and it was an easy $50 part replacement

 

[ScottF]

The other thing here to extend longevity is I remove the wasted roll at the halfway point. This takes the strain off the motor too. Also, don’t forget Red Sea will warranty replace the motor once in the first year. They don’t ask for anything but your serial number. Both of mine have spares :)

Why would this take the strain off of the motor? The friction from the weight of the used fleece? I would think if anything the strain would be less. Wouldn't the increased circumference of the used fleece act like a larger gear as more used fleece accumulates on the roll and thus reduce the strain on the motor?

I don't know. I'm not a mechanical engineer or physicist. It just seems like it should have more leverage as the fleece gets used and the roll on the motor side gets bigger.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Not quite right - i just had mine replaced, and i had to supply videos and pictures also to prove it wasnt working. They also shipped it to my LFS where i purchased it, as i had to supply receipts of purchase also.

Probably from people asking for new motors un-neccesarily...

You can purchase spares fairly cheap though.

Sorry man, no videos or pictures here. So I wouldn’t say not quite right. But I guess your mileage may vary.

 

[ScottF]

Why would this take the strain off of the motor? The friction from the weight of the used fleece? I would think if anything the strain would be less. Wouldn't the increased circumference of the used fleece act like a larger gear as more used fleece accumulates on the roll and thus reduce the strain on the motor?

I don't know. I'm not a mechanical engineer or physicist. It just seems like it should have more leverage as the fleece gets used and the roll on the motor side gets bigger.

All of that being said, I do sometimes remove the used fleece at the halfway point just to reduce the "fish tank smell".

 

[ScottD]

Why would this take the strain off of the motor? The friction from the weight of the used fleece? I would think if anything the strain would be less. Wouldn't the increased circumference of the used fleece act like a larger gear as more used fleece accumulates on the roll and thus reduce the strain on the motor?

I don't know. I'm not a mechanical engineer or physicist. It just seems like it should have more leverage as the fleece gets used and the roll on the motor side gets bigger.

As you increase the diameter and keep the same force applied, you are increased the amount the motor has to overcome which puts more strain on the motor.

An example to help visualize it.
Say you have a short wrench on a 1/2” bolt. You hang off it, putting all your weight on it. The bolt might tighten a little bit. Now say you do the same only this time you put an 8’ pipe on the wrench to extend it and hang from the end of the pipe. I’d be willing to bet you’d twist the bolt until it snaps in half. That same internal twisting force (called a moment force) is happening to the motor and must overcome it to advance the roll.

 

[ScottF]

As you increase the diameter and keep the same force applied, you are increased the amount the motor has to overcome which puts more strain on the motor.

An example to help visualize it.
Say you have a short wrench on a 1/2” bolt. You hang off it, putting all your weight on it. The bolt might tighten a little bit. Now say you do the same only this time you put an 8’ pipe on the wrench to extend it and hang from the end of the pipe. I’d be willing to bet you’d twist the bolt until it snaps in half. That same internal twisting force (called a moment force) is happening to the motor and must overcome it to advance the roll.

You are right. I was thinking bigger cylinder, more leverage. But that is if the force is applied to the outside of the cylinder. Applying the force from the center of the cylinder would mean an increase in resistance with a larger cylinder.

 

[ScottF]

You are right. I was thinking bigger cylinder, more leverage. But that is if the force is applied to the outside of the cylinder. Applying the force from the center of the cylinder would mean an increase in resistance with a larger cylinder.

But the motor would need to spin less. The less resistance is probably better than less revolutions though.