Simulations

[Kayotic5011]

Hows it going fellow reefers.......hahahaha.....ok ok sorry couldn't help but laugh at that.

Anyway I want to talk simulations. One of my up coming builds is going to be a Tidal Tank, Its going to be a some what shallow square of a tank (frag tank) and set it up with a control panel that controls the draining and refilling of the tank at a rate that simulates tides. My goal is to log the effects on coral and fish growth along with fish and coral propagation in the home aquarium. I'm going to set the high tides and low tides every day for yr (to start) and document the effects on my fish and corals. Eventually the corals and fish should start to show best signs of natural behavior....Id like to know if anyone has tried such a thing before and what were your results. If you havent tired it thats ok I still want to hear your thoughts on the process. What do you think will happen?

I also want to point out that I will be using a light that mimics sun rise and sun set with a fade to on and fade to off and is set for seasonal so its mimicking the seasons and is rising and lowering with the actual days sun rise and sun set. It also has a lunar cycle it follows which changes the moon light as if it was being covered.....Oh one more thing I will be changing the days and times of high tide and low tide according to the actual tides in real life. I will be doing this because the moon and gravity in real life is what effects the tides so buy changing the times to correspond with the real tides I can use real life gravity and lunar placement to add to my tidal simulation, because all life feels the effects of real life changes and I believe so do the animals in your home aquariums and cages.

What do you guys think?

 

[hybridazn]

Interesting experiment, I wish you luck!

I wonder how most corals and fish would react to this being that a lot of corals have been aquacultured for generations now and fish are becoming more and more captive bred.

 

[Kayotic5011]

Interesting experiment, I wish you luck!

I wonder how most corals and fish would react to this being that a lot of corals have been aquacultured for generations now and fish are becoming more and more captive bred.

Good point, very strong point ... I have this theory where, all animals (corals too) can feel the natural cycle of life and will never forget there roots and if allotted the time and given the ability they can revert to an exstint. Take pigs for example, they can be farmed all day long and will be all piggy and what not.....but you let them things go and with in weeks there feral again and even growing tusks even dogs, and cats. All living things have the will to live and thrive I just wonder what simulation can do for it.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Interesting! I'll be following to see what the outcome is.

 

[zachxlutz]

Hows it going fellow reefers.......hahahaha.....ok ok sorry couldn't help but laugh at that.

Anyway I want to talk simulations. One of my up coming builds is going to be a Tidal Tank, Its going to be a some what shallow square of a tank (frag tank) and set it up with a control panel that controls the draining and refilling of the tank at a rate that simulates tides. My goal is to log the effects on coral and fish growth along with fish and coral propagation in the home aquarium. I'm going to set the high tides and low tides every day for yr (to start) and document the effects on my fish and corals. Eventually the corals and fish should start to show best signs of natural behavior....Id like to know if anyone has tried such a thing before and what were your results. If you havent tired it thats ok I still want to hear your thoughts on the process. What do you think will happen?

I also want to point out that I will be using a light that mimics sun rise and sun set with a fade to on and fade to off and is set for seasonal so its mimicking the seasons and is rising and lowering with the actual days sun rise and sun set. It also has a lunar cycle it follows which changes the moon light as if it was being covered.....Oh one more thing I will be changing the days and times of high tide and low tide according to the actual tides in real life. I will be doing this because the moon and gravity in real life is what effects the tides so buy changing the times to correspond with the real tides I can use real life gravity and lunar placement to add to my tidal simulation, because all life feels the effects of real life changes and I believe so do the animals in your home aquariums and cages.

What do you guys think?

Will you be using an Apex along with the seasonal table for temperature, sunrise/sunset and moonrise/moonset? If not, what implementation will you be using?

 

[Ezrunner23]

Very interesting! I'm following along to see how this goes.

 

[Kayotic5011]

Will you be using an Apex along with the seasonal table for temperature, sunrise/sunset and moonrise/moonset? If not, what implementation will you be using?

I have put some thought into it...but lol...Im actually in the process of designing one myself. In my job life I build robot brains for a living aka I build and wire control panels of all sizes (sometimes big ones over 10 ft tall and 23ft long). They control everything that produces the every day products you buy on a daily basis....yes have even done actual robots. The company I work for has had there hands in everything from beer to candy to carpet. I just built a control panel for starbucks that control a line of roasters and other things they use to make peoples coffee but shhh that's not supposed to be talked about lol.....So with that said I have been (in my off time) coming up with a control panel that is built to run my entire system and even manage my water changes on its own. I will use prox sensors to tell the lvl of my water and things like that, I'll control the whole thing with a PLC and a point I/O which is hooked to my pc.

My ultimate goal is to make a system that adds a certain amount of water to the refill res of this tidal tank once every couple weeks (or when planed out). The plan is to use a sensors that measures a certain amount of water and drains it to a bucket stopping at around 5 gallons or what doesn't over flow the bucket of choice (amount of gallons used as an example) this will be waste water (or water changed water). Then at this point its already topped off the res with the amount of water taken out so as the tank drains to low tide the water from the tank will combined with the water in the res allowing it to mix for the duration of low tide before its pumped into the tank.

As for the apex, at 3-9 bills thats a ***** price to pay but looks totally worth it. It seems to be what I have in mind to build myself..well part of it anyway, and it might not be a bad Idea to have one at some point. As for my temp control I was thinking maybe add a heater to the res that would kick on at low tide when the res was more full (when temp rise was needed) then during the winter (in theory) all id have to do is cut back on the time the heater is allowed to be on keeping the water cool but not to cold (though will really depend on species of corals and fish). That should in theory allow the water to stay with in a reasonable range to mimic the season due to the top tank being proper temps before draining to the res. I am think by allowing the top tank to drain to low tide setting and controlling the heater to kick on or stay off I could regulate the temperature without having to do much.

Im excited to get behind the wheel of this one and drive it like I stole it ya know, I really want to see this vision come to life. Ive done a lot of tank build and learned a lot about the life I kept, but this one will be the most impressive and teach me the most if I can pull it off....Hey I also want to thank you all for your comments so far, it was exactly what I was looking for. Feed back is important, studying and learning together you learn more than if you were alone. Im hoping to get people involved with this concept and really start collecting data......But im sure if I can show I can pull this off ill have no problem bringing people into this convo and studies.

 

[Pavonatech]

Hows it going fellow reefers.......hahahaha.....ok ok sorry couldn't help but laugh at that.

Anyway I want to talk simulations. One of my up coming builds is going to be a Tidal Tank, Its going to be a some what shallow square of a tank (frag tank) and set it up with a control panel that controls the draining and refilling of the tank at a rate that simulates tides. My goal is to log the effects on coral and fish growth along with fish and coral propagation in the home aquarium. I'm going to set the high tides and low tides every day for yr (to start) and document the effects on my fish and corals. Eventually the corals and fish should start to show best signs of natural behavior....Id like to know if anyone has tried such a thing before and what were your results. If you havent tired it thats ok I still want to hear your thoughts on the process. What do you think will happen?

I also want to point out that I will be using a light that mimics sun rise and sun set with a fade to on and fade to off and is set for seasonal so its mimicking the seasons and is rising and lowering with the actual days sun rise and sun set. It also has a lunar cycle it follows which changes the moon light as if it was being covered.....Oh one more thing I will be changing the days and times of high tide and low tide according to the actual tides in real life. I will be doing this because the moon and gravity in real life is what effects the tides so buy changing the times to correspond with the real tides I can use real life gravity and lunar placement to add to my tidal simulation, because all life feels the effects of real life changes and I believe so do the animals in your home aquariums and cages.

What do you guys think?

At the moment I'm working on some software to put workups of my tanks parameters on my webserver and have it passively feed a dynamically updating graph for my website. I cant afford the sensors to actually test the software real time because scientific sensors are expensive and i'm in my dorm room eating corn for dinner, but if you'd be interested I can link you the git for it once I tidy it up. Just send me PM. Modifying the dataset to add a rear overlay of tides in your tank might be pretty neat.

 

[Kayotic5011]

At the moment I'm working on some software to put workups of my tanks parameters on my webserver and have it passively feed a dynamically updating graph for my website. I cant afford the sensors to actually test the software real time because scientific sensors are expensive and i'm in my dorm room eating corn for dinner, but if you'd be interested I can link you the git for it once I tidy it up. Just send me PM. Modifying the dataset to add a rear overlay of tides in your tank might be pretty neat.

Word!, Your going to love my last reply to the previous question and talking about the control panel I want to build for it. I have not put much thought into the program, im gonna pm you I wanna talk to you about a couple things

 

[Cliff Shepherd]

This is a great idea
Have you thought about what fish to keep? The only thing is if you are in Florida per say, and matching the seasons there it will limit your stocking list. Because the moon where you are won't match the season in Fiji, or other stocking areas

 

[Pavonatech]

This is a great idea
Have you thought about what fish to keep? The only thing is if you are in Florida per say, and matching the seasons there it will limit your stocking list. Because the moon where you are won't match the season in Fiji, or other stocking areas

In theory he could replicate any area's tides simply by adjusting water in/out rates, all he needs is sealevel variation and basic weather metadata

 

[Kayotic5011]

This is a great idea
Have you thought about what fish to keep? The only thing is if you are in Florida per say, and matching the seasons there it will limit your stocking list. Because the moon where you are won't match the season in Fiji, or other stocking areas

Im so glad you asked that, this is the part I was really hoping would be brought up and have thought a little about it. I will have to make a poll and ask what people would like to see the effects on, like a favorite coral or reef safe fish. I have thought about it with corals too, and each one used will be carefully documented, but the thing with the corals is...there are shallow water corals and deep water corals, not to mention tidal zone corals and fish. With that said I will have to have part of this tidal tank that doesnt change much durning low tide....hmmm thank you so much for asking that question....ive got some designing to do. I see what im gonna do, adds another pump and return but thats ok......man im gonna have to buy a house just for this thing hahaha....oh by the way I live in east Tn, grew up in south fl. The temps here go from low 20s at times durning the winter but commonly 30s 40s and durning the summer can reach 90+.

In theory he could replicate any area's tides simply by adjusting water in/out rates, all he needs is sealevel variation and basic weather metadata

That is kind what Im hoping for.....Im gonna have to do a poll as i mentioned before and see what peoples favorite corals and fish are and choose all I can for the size of the tank and what not....I want to add all of your guys and girls favorites so I can get as much information for all of you as I can for myself in the process....but we will all have to work together and pick corals and fish who all get along and as I said ill do my best to pick as many as I can....specially with fish more than corals because we all know some fish just dont like each other.

 

[Pavonatech]

Im so glad you asked that, this is the part I was really hoping would be brought up and have thought a little about it. I will have to make a poll and ask what people would like to see the effects on, like a favorite coral or reef safe fish. I have thought about it with corals too, and each one used will be carefully documented, but the thing with the corals is...there are shallow water corals and deep water corals, not to mention tidal zone corals and fish. With that said I will have to have part of this tidal tank that doesnt change much durning low tide....hmmm thank you so much for asking that question....ive got some designing to do. I see what im gonna do, adds another pump and return but thats ok......man im gonna have to buy a house just for this thing hahaha....oh by the way I live in east Tn, grew up in south fl. The temps here go from low 20s at times durning the winter but commonly 30s 40s and durning the summer can reach 90+.

That is kind what Im hoping for.....Im gonna have to do a poll as i mentioned before and see what peoples favorite corals and fish are and choose all I can for the size of the tank and what not....I want to add all of your guys and girls favorites so I can get as much information for all of you as I can for myself in the process....but we will all have to work together and pick corals and fish who all get along and as I said ill do my best to pick as many as I can....specially with fish more than corals because we all know some fish just dont like each other.

Unfortunately, for the data to be scientifically sound, you need to pick a specific location in which you will be sourcing your livestock. If you're just kinda poking at it, then favorite fish is fine, but if you're looking for quantitative data, you will have to source from the same area, as well as get a full mockup of water quality in that area by season. You do have to consider that winters and summers have different variations of water quality and nutrient richness. On top of that, you need to get the PAR of the height in which the coral were taken, as well as the height in the water column in order to source coral removed from the same depth. AKA make friends down in the tropics if you want this to be valid scientifically. Thats just for scientifically valid data though. If you do choose to go that route, I can help you eliminate some of the variables as well as do some of the leg work.

 

[Kayotic5011]

Unfortunately, for the data to be scientifically sound, you need to pick a specific location in which you will be sourcing your livestock. If you're just kinda poking at it, then favorite fish is fine, but if you're looking for quantitative data, you will have to source from the same area, as well as get a full mockup of water quality in that area by season. You do have to consider that winters and summers have different variations of water quality and nutrient richness. On top of that, you need to get the PAR of the height in which the coral were taken, as well as the height in the water column in order to source coral removed from the same depth. AKA make friends down in the tropics if you want this to be valid scientifically. Thats just for scientifically valid data though. If you do choose to go that route, I can help you eliminate some of the variables as well as do some of the leg work.

Rock on Im loving your thoughts and approach. I am willing to take any help I can get as this will indeed be a large project. I have thought about this and well i'm sure that most of peoples favorite choices will match region and I can pick and choose from there. I'm hoping to get enough replys to what people want to see that I can go for both the scientific approach and try to get people some info on favorites for people. I'm almost willing to bet a large number of choices will come from the indo pacific. So that might help make choosing a region a little easier. Then lets hope people who are interested in this notice the region mostly being chose allowing them to choose from that region as well and in turn narrowing it down. My cousin also owns one of the biggest saltwater fish stores in the keys so I have the connection for sure......**** gotta go build some stuff for work...Ill be back to finish off our topic after work today...I'm taking an early day anyway seeing ill have 40hrs by noon today.

 

[samnaz]

Following! Love the idea...

Stocking plans?

 

[Kayotic5011]

Following! Love the idea...

Stocking plans?

well I think what im going to do to help make that decision is to make a poll and ask what part of the region does everyone's favorite corals and fish come from, then based on the most chosen region is what I will pick from....My goal is to gather the science but also involve everyone who wants to be by giving them the chance to see something they have or like or what to know about in the tank....its deff going to be a long project...but hey that's what saltwater is lol

 

[Sallstrom]

Great tread! I'm tagging along as I always need new ideas for my work at a public aquarium. The tidal idea is something I want to have in a mangrove tank in the future.

About mimic lunar cycle, corals spawning in aquariums and more, have a look at this great work:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ece3.3538/full

/ David

 

[Kayotic5011]

Great tread! I'm tagging along as I always need new ideas for my work at a public aquarium. The tidal idea is something I want to have in a mangrove tank in the future.

About mimic lunar cycle, corals spawning in aquariums and more, have a look at this great work:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ece3.3538/full

/ David

that is an amazing write up, he has defiantly pulled out all the stops in his research. I'm really excited to have seen this article thank you for sharing, there is a lot of good info in there.

A mangrove tank with brackish water and some archer fish would be awesome. Its something i have always wanted, I want to have a little branch that is exposed at low tide where I can put crickets for the archer fish to shoot water at.

 

[VR28man]

This is an interesting idea. However, most lagoon or reef crest species are not exposed when the tide goes out; they feel it in the form of different current direction during the day. You can simulate them by just having opposing powerheads come on, at different times of the day

That being said, simulating a tide pool area (macro algae, crabs, blennies) would be good with your idea.

A shallow inshore zone would also work. I’ll dig around for fish and coral in that setting. Caulerpa i know live in such conditions. Same for, oddly, ocellaris clowns and ltas.

Eta: also carpet anemones, mushroom corals, and even some species of acropora. Heck, even some kinds of tridacnid clams. Pocillopora damicornis also should work.

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/142920-dshnarw-biotope/

John tullock’s book “the natural reef aquarium” also has a number of ideas for inshore Florida reef tanks, based on his grad school days in the keys.

 

[Kayotic5011]

most lagoon or reef crest species are not exposed when the tide goes out; they feel it in the form of different current direction during the day. You can simulate then I just have opposing powerheads come on, at different times of the day

I don't want to expose any of my corals or creatures, not to open air. I only want to expose them to natural occurrences during what would be high tide and low tide and as you said, with current direction, but this is where i wanna take it farther. I don't think just using a power head from each side of the tank would give me the best data though your idea gives me a really good idea for my returns. Thank you for that thought.....my reasoning for the actual tidal situations is because of our moon and our actual gravity. I whole heartily believe in the concept that our animals, pets, family...whatever you what to call them lol.... feel the pull of the moon and its gravity just as we do no matter what tank, wall, or object there behind or in. I believe that some corals and fish wont propagate or maintain proper health because there not receiving the full effect of the moons pull through tide and stimulation's caused by said event. Though they may feel it, I think it confuses them, kinda like pigs.....i mean if you take a pig and put it in a pin and let it play with the other pigs it will be your farm animal, you feed it, it responds to you it relies on you. Now you take that same pig and leave the gate open so it can leave, it is known fact that once it leaves its farm home and is left to its own doing without any interaction it will revert to a feral pig growing hair and tusks. I don't believe we can totally take out the interaction from our aquariums and I personally don't think the fish want that either as some act more like friends than fish lol, but what I do believe is that same concept with the way it alters the pigs train of thought that it will do the same to the fish making it want to act more as if it was in the wild than if it was in a tank in your home. I believe fish of this manner would show off different behaviors which in turn would help us learn more about them as the individuals they are.

simulating a tide pool area (macro algae, crabs, blennies) would be good with your idea.

A shallow inshore zone would also work. I’ll dig around for fish and coral in that setting. Caulerpa i know live in such conditions. Same for, oddly, ocellaris clowns and ltas.

Eta: also carpet anemones, mushroom corals, and even some species of acropora. Heck, even some kinds of tridacnid clams. Pocillopora damicornis also should work.

Love this list, just reading it reminded me of the tidal pools in crescent city California when I lived out there for a little bit. You never know what your gonna find in one.

As a matter of fact this tank right here was made from captures out of some of those tidal pools. I decided since I was by the ocean again I would gather everything I needed to set up a saltwater tank from nature....besides the tang of course. I even got that saltwater from the ocean during high tide and did my water changes that way. I grew up in south fl and I use to do all kinds of tanks like that...My favorite aquatic pet so far is an octopus, owned 5 of them all at different times. I would love to add one of those to the mix but it would eat all my subjects lol.