SPS Failure

sculpin01

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STN seems to be caused by too low nutrients (notably phosphate), bacterial pathogens, or unrecognized copepod parasites (e.g. red bugs/Tegastes/Alteuthellopsis corallina). So taking a systematic approach to combating this would be to bump nutrients, send an Aquabiomics test, and dip the affected corals (I like KCl 10g/L for 5 minutes) with microscopic exam of what falls off. If all that is negative, consider getting some live sand from Aquabiomics or IPSF to increase your bacterial diversity.

I'm also not a huge fan of carbon dosing as I feel like it can lead to bacterial imbalances but YMMV.
 

Timfish

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There are multiple variables we are only now learning about. There are issues with dosing labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, promoting pathogenic shifts in microbiomes. It can take time for the cryptic sponges to grow that process DOC 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton which may compensate for bad DOC. Resilliance and immunity varies by not only species but also genotype as well as history so the conditions the animals were kept under before you acquired them is important to know (I know, almost impossible to find out :/ ). Different classes of corals promote different types of aurobiomes so adding the corals desired initially is in theory a better way of getting beneficial microbiomes.

Strawberry Shortcake Acro is one example of the issues we have keeping different corals together. On reefs 95% of the colonies are found only in association with other acros.


Here's some links I've collected over the years you may find informative:


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


15 Answers



Total Organic Carbon Pt 1

Total Organic Carbon Pt 2

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water
 
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ReefHunter006

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STN seems to be caused by too low nutrients (notably phosphate), bacterial pathogens, or unrecognized copepod parasites (e.g. red bugs/Tegastes/Alteuthellopsis corallina). So taking a systematic approach to combating this would be to bump nutrients, send an Aquabiomics test, and dip the affected corals (I like KCl 10g/L for 5 minutes) with microscopic exam of what falls off. If all that is negative, consider getting some live sand from Aquabiomics or IPSF to increase your bacterial diversity.

I'm also not a huge fan of carbon dosing as I feel like it can lead to bacterial imbalances but YMMV.
I run a pretty stringent QT process for coral and frequently check for bugs in the Frag system. Nothing gets added to that system without going through A separate qt in isolation. I always monitor and make sure I am stoked on inception just in case.

I think an aquabiomics test might be worth it. I decided last night, albeit maybe not the smartest move, but I took about 5 lbs of rock rubble from the frag systems and put it in the sump of the display. Maybe that will help the micro biome.

Regarding your point on nutrients, I typically don’t let my PO4 get far away from .1 in any of my systems. But I do agree no3 should be closer to 10. I upped feeding for that.

I do think that carbon dosing without a decent coral mass has adversely effected the biology of the tank causing a hinderance to sps growth.

I also know that adding carbon to my frag system regularly leads to an affliction in my sps that cause the growth to appear like a tumor mass and the polyps/skin to bubble. Shown below.


AE0AA527-35F7-489F-91F9-632DC781CDCF.jpeg


So I think you’re right and to be honest, I should have been more diligent in recognizing cause and effect. My thought process was that carbon couldn’t cause the growth of a pathogen that wasn’t in the tank yet (no corals), but that doesn’t mean it didn’t pick something else.

Appreciate the response.
 
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ReefHunter006

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There are multiple variables we are only now learning about. There are issues with dosing labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, promoting pathogenic shifts in microbiomes. It can take time for the cryptic sponges to grow that process DOC 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton which may compensate for bad DOC. Resilliance and immunity varies by not only species but also genotype as well as history so the conditions the animals were kept under before you acquired them is important to know (I know, almost impossible to find out :/ ). Different classes of corals promote different types of aurobiomes so adding the corals desired initially is in theory a better way of getting beneficial microbiomes.

Strawberry Shortcake Acro is one example of the issues we have keeping different corals together. On reefs 95% of the colonies are found only in association with other acros.


Here's some links I've collected over the years you may find informative:


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


15 Answers



Total Organic Carbon Pt 1

Total Organic Carbon Pt 2

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water

Thank you, I will give these a listen over the next couple days while I’m working.

I responded sculpin above, but my response combines party’s from both of your comments.
 

helmsreef

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I dont consider myself an expert but I am one of those few that can start up a tank and load the system up with corals and have success. My current smaller tank is an example. The only difference is I typically will use rock that has been cured. Not necessary live ocean rock, but rock that has been seeded with bacteria. I think the biggest contributor to systems like that being successful are loading the system up with a decent amount of corals. My smaller system was filled with sand, added saltwater, added cured rock, Dr Dims live bacteria, then the next day I added about 15-20 frags. I performed my water changes weekly until the system became stable. Each coral and each frag in itself will carry a biome on it that in short time will spread throughout your system. These different little biomes contribute to a variety that most corals and sps will use for growth and success. May not be exactly why these setups work but for that has been the case.
 

ScottB

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Coralline used to be my marker for when a system might support SPS, but not any longer. I want to see sponges. A LOT of sponge. I've set up a few systems with immediate SPS, but they all started with LIVE (not cured) rock.

Here is my latest. The sump is full of sponge covered rock. The system never missed a beat.
IMG-6126.jpg
 

ninjamyst

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I dont consider myself an expert but I am one of those few that can start up a tank and load the system up with corals and have success. My current smaller tank is an example. The only difference is I typically will use rock that has been cured. Not necessary live ocean rock, but rock that has been seeded with bacteria. I think the biggest contributor to systems like that being successful are loading the system up with a decent amount of corals. My smaller system was filled with sand, added saltwater, added cured rock, Dr Dims live bacteria, then the next day I added about 15-20 frags. I performed my water changes weekly until the system became stable. Each coral and each frag in itself will carry a biome on it that in short time will spread throughout your system. These different little biomes contribute to a variety that most corals and sps will use for growth and success. May not be exactly why these setups work but for that has been the case.
I second this. I started all my tank this way and would drop in easy corals 1-3 days after the tank is wet. I always start with dry rock and seed the tank with a few rubles from more established tank. After a week or two, easy SPS. After a month, acros.

I disagree with people that say to start tank, do nothing for 6 months, and then add corals. SOMETHING has to bring in biomes. Sterile tank remains a sterile tank.
 
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ReefHunter006

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Anybody got links to tank build threads that cold start a tank with dead rock and SPS? I can only think of one @Roberto Denadai that has done this successfully.

Also, people that run fishless SPS successfully. Pretty darn rare.
Reef cowboy.

my fragtank is sps fishless. Just mentioning because I think it shows I’m not a stranger to growing sps in atypical environments.

0DD6ADFE-B1E3-4206-A7C1-911435ED6235.jpeg
 

Lavey29

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I second this. I started all my tank this way and would drop in easy corals 1-3 days after the tank is wet. I always start with dry rock and seed the tank with a few rubles from more established tank. After a week or two, easy SPS. After a month, acros.

I disagree with people that say to start tank, do nothing for 6 months, and then add corals. SOMETHING has to bring in biomes. Sterile tank remains a sterile tank.
My approach was different albeit I started with dead fake rock. I waited 4 months before turning lights on and adding corals to allow for biodiversity and microfauna to develop. This made my ugly stages relatively mild and manageable. I did lose some corals in the 5 to 8 month range but the tank was still maturing and not stable. Things changed dramatically after a year.

I do agree live ocean rock or established rock from another system significantly jump starts the biome and allows things to be added sooner with success and I have learned that the more corals you can squeeze into the tank, the stronger the biome seems to get if the fish stocking provides for it. Being wall to wall coral and fish now has definitely strengthened my biome in my opinion.
 

sculpin01

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I run a pretty stringent QT process for coral and frequently check for bugs in the Frag system.Nothing gets added to that system without going through A separate qt in isolation. I always monitor and make sure I am stoked on inception just in case.

I think an aquabiomics test might be worth it. I decided last night, albeit maybe not the smartest move, but I took about 5 lbs of rock rubble from the frag systems and put it in the sump of the display. Maybe that will help the micro biome.

Regarding your point on nutrients, I typically don’t let my PO4 get far away from .1 in any of my systems. But I do agree no3 should be closer to 10. I upped feeding for that.

I do think that carbon dosing without a decent coral mass has adversely effected the biology of the tank causing a hinderance to sps growth.

I also know that adding carbon to my frag system regularly leads to an affliction in my sps that cause the growth to appear like a tumor mass and the polyps/skin to bubble. Shown below.


AE0AA527-35F7-489F-91F9-632DC781CDCF.jpeg


So I think you’re right and to be honest, I should have been more diligent in recognizing cause and effect. My thought process was that carbon couldn’t cause the growth of a pathogen that wasn’t in the tank yet (no corals), but that doesn’t mean it didn’t pick something else.

Appreciate the response.
I believe there may be some benefit in directly swabbing your afflicted corals but I would discuss that with Aquabiomics prior to doing so. That technique was utilized to verify Arcobacter as the primary culprit for RTN recently. I’d be curious if your corals with tissue abnormalities didn’t also have a specific amplified strain of bacteria causing their problems. If so, directed antibiotic therapy may be in order.
 

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