SPS problems....need advice

Reefpro · Jul 27, 2017

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Posted Monday at 09:37 PM
Ok so I have come across some recent SPS problems and can't get to the bottom of it. I am getting weekly sometimes more STN of my acros. The corals are receding from the bottom up. About 1/2 of the remaining SPS are really lacking polyp extension and pale in color.

Tank stats 200 gallon with 40 gallon sump, running a Deltec slimmer, Geo calcium reactor, Apex, ATI 8 bulb fixture with OR 247 supplemental lighting, changes socks once per week and feed heavy, I have a large amount if cheato on timed light cycle that grows well

i have 16 fish in the tank ranging from small to big, feed LRS, formula one pellets, spiraling brine and mysis shrimp along with Nori. I rotate through these foods but feed twice a day.

My light cycle is leds on from 1-9 and t5 on from 2-8

todays numbers:

alk 8.6, CA 395, MAG 1390, PO4 .10, NO3 ZERO, SALINITY 1.025 TEMP 78.2

No alk swings and no bugs. I pulled all my mp-40 and checked for rusty magnets and for any exposed wires in sump. I also for good measure added a stray voltage probe.

The one noticeable thing I am questioning is TDS. can tds lead to stn/Rtn? I use a spectra pure 6 stage unit that goes directly to my tank on a float valve. I checked all the RO/DI numbers today and are as follows. Into membrane 9, out of membrane 11, into DI 7, out of DI 4. I FLUSHED THE MEMBRANE FOR ABOUT 5 MIN PRIOR TO CHECKING NUMBERS.

could it be as simple as TDS? Or the lack of nitrates? I've been adding stump remover to bring nitrates up and when I stay with it things polyp out a lil better, but depletes quickly.

Any thoughts or ideas would be great.

bif24701 · Jul 27, 2017

Reefpro said:
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Posted Monday at 09:37 PM
Ok so I have come across some recent SPS problems and can't get to the bottom of it. I am getting weekly sometimes more STN of my acros. The corals are receding from the bottom up. About 1/2 of the remaining SPS are really lacking polyp extension and pale in color.

Tank stats 200 gallon with 40 gallon sump, running a Deltec slimmer, Geo calcium reactor, Apex, ATI 8 bulb fixture with OR 247 supplemental lighting, changes socks once per week and feed heavy, I have a large amount if cheato on timed light cycle that grows well

i have 16 fish in the tank ranging from small to big, feed LRS, formula one pellets, spiraling brine and mysis shrimp along with Nori. I rotate through these foods but feed twice a day.

My light cycle is leds on from 1-9 and t5 on from 2-8

todays numbers:

alk 8.6, CA 395, MAG 1390, PO4 .10, NO3 ZERO, SALINITY 1.025 TEMP 78.2

No alk swings and no bugs. I pulled all my mp-40 and checked for rusty magnets and for any exposed wires in sump. I also for good measure added a stray voltage probe.

The one noticeable thing I am questioning is TDS. can tds lead to stn/Rtn? I use a spectra pure 6 stage unit that goes directly to my tank on a float valve. I checked all the RO/DI numbers today and are as follows. Into membrane 9, out of membrane 11, into DI 7, out of DI 4. I FLUSHED THE MEMBRANE FOR ABOUT 5 MIN PRIOR TO CHECKING NUMBERS.

could it be as simple as TDS? Or the lack of nitrates? I've been adding stump remover to bring nitrates up and when I stay with it things polyp out a lil better, but depletes quickly.

Any thoughts or ideas would be great.

Sound like nitrate deficiency.

How much are you adding and how long before is zero again?

5ppm is a good target to get too.

What nutrient control methods do you use other than skimmer and cheato?

You should be getting 000 TDS after DI so you may have channeling. Replace the DI and make sure to pack it in the canister very well, tamp and pack it a little at a time until it's full.

Bpb · Jul 27, 2017

Yeah I agree it looks like not only a nitrate deficiency, but also a phosphate imbalance (as in po4 higher than NO3). Honestly I've been through time periods of a year or more when every acro that went into my tank would STN until dead. No matter how many times I'd clip and glue. Eventually I just started doing lots of water changes paid closer attention to obsessing on target goals for nitrate and phosphate and everything perked up and is flourishing now

Maacc · Jul 27, 2017

DI also sounds exhausted. Have you checked the effluent from the rodi for chlorine/chloramine? Your carbon blocks could be exhausted. I would do a change out of your rodi stuff if it's been awhile. I also agree with the above, with as high as you have your alk, you definitely need more nitrate.

bif24701 · Jul 27, 2017

Could you post again your RO/DI TDS numbers? Something seems off there.

bif24701 · Jul 27, 2017

Maacc said:
DI also sounds exhausted. Have you checked the effluent from the rodi for chlorine/chloramine? Your carbon blocks could be exhausted. I would do a change out of your rodi stuff if it's been awhile. I also agree with the above, with as high as you have your alk, you definitely need more nitrate.

Use the Total Chlorine test strips from BRS and test the waste water. If chloramines are getting through it will start to destroy the RO membrane, the work horse of the system.

danlu_gt · Jul 27, 2017

Other possibility could be pests issue? Take one with base stn in a white cup and blast it well with turkey baster to see if anything comes off.

3mm3 · Jul 27, 2017

TDS coming out of membrane should not be higher than going into it. Are your numbers mixed up there?

Scott.h · Jul 27, 2017

Your end result needs to be zero tds. If it's not you don't know which elements those tds are. Since you are having problems make sure it's zero. Water changes won't help if it's not.

You have a nitrate and phosphate imbalance also. If you are dosing N, good, but go really really slow. Adding stump remover will also spark rtn. I'd add a little gfo in a bag for a few hours each day too. But be careful changing too much at once or the issue will probably get worse.

Until you get your nitrates detectable and stable I'd let your alk naturally fall below 8.0 too. It won't hurt, and it can help.

Proper Parameters, stability, flow, and light. In that order

Reefpro · Jul 27, 2017

Ok i will retrst everything today. All nee filters and membeanes plus di been ordered a

Reefpro · Jul 27, 2017

So ive noticed with nitrates when i add i can get it back up to around 5-10 but only temporary it will register then the following day be gone am i always going to have to does nitrates?

Scott.h · Jul 27, 2017

Reefpro said:
So ive noticed with nitrates when i add i can get it back up to around 5-10 but only temporary it will register then the following day be gone am i always going to have to does nitrates?

Do not go from zero to 5 in one day. They are used to zero so slow. Start adding N 2x a day in hopes it will be detectable after a few days. With N and P being so closely related just lowering your P will most likely raise N without even adding it.

bif24701 · Jul 27, 2017

Scott.h said:
Do not go from zero to 5 in one day. They are used to zero so slow. Start adding N 2x a day in hopes it will be detectable after a few days. With N and P being so closely related just lowering your P will most likely raise N without even adding it.

Also,
Nitrate will start to build up and hopefully reach 5ppm and stay there. Continue to feed and export normally. Raising NO3 may also cause PO4 to reduce. They're both part of the nutrient cycle.

Scott.h · Jul 27, 2017

In case you don't have a solid dosing plan, twillards formula is what I use for measurements. Again I'd probably lower P a bit before I focused on N and see where it ends up but:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/

Peng · Jul 27, 2017

Reduce the amount of cheato. When I had mine it was constantly stealing nutrients and out-competing corals so I had dying pale corals. You might find out that you don't even need cheato depending on your system load. If your NO3 is truly zero, it's very bad (it's so bad I can't stress this enough and in prolonged period of time many harder-to-treat issues can come up). People who run UNLS constantly dose things to keep their corals fed.

Mattrg02 · Jul 27, 2017

Scott.h said:
Your end result needs to be zero tds. If it's not you don't know which elements those tds are. Since you are having problems make sure it's zero. Water changes won't help if it's not.

You have a nitrate and phosphate imbalance also. If you are dosing N, good, but go really really slow. Adding stump remover will also spark rtn. I'd add a little gfo in a bag for a few hours each day too. But be careful changing too much at once or the issue will probably get worse.

Until you get your nitrates detectable and stable I'd let your alk naturally fall below 8.0 too. It won't hurt, and it can help.

Proper Parameters, stability, flow, and light. In that order

I dose stump remover, dissolved in rodi water, for nitrates and don't have any rtn or stn. Many others do as well without any issues.

Scott.h · Jul 27, 2017

Mattrg02 said:
I dose stump remover, dissolved in rodi water, for nitrates and don't have any rtn or stn. Many others do as well without any issues.

I daily dose as well, but when I first started dosing I had no issues other then bleaching. I had roughly 20 species of sps at the time. Every bit of N that I added got sucked right up. After 3 or 4 days of testing and watching the level go from detectable to undetectable, I doubled my dose taking it to over 5 immediately. Over the course of a day to a few days the result was that I burned probably 20% of my tips, taking them over a month to heal. That was my experience, so trying to prevent a brother from having the same thing happen.

bif24701 · Jul 27, 2017

I've been adding NO3 (stump remover) for about a year now

Mattrg02 · Jul 27, 2017

Scott.h said:
I daily dose as well, but when I first started dosing I had no issues other then bleaching. I had roughly 20 species of sps at the time. Every bit of N that I added got sucked right up. After 3 or 4 days of testing and watching the level go from detectable to undetectable, I doubled my dose taking it to over 5 immediately. Over the course of a day to a few days the result was that I burned probably 20% of my tips, taking them over a month to heal. That was my experience, so trying to prevent a brother from having the same thing happen.

There had to be something else amiss. I've never heard of nitrates causing burned tips, but the lack of them coupled with higher alkalinity causing it.

I try to add a little every few days and test a few times a week to make sure I'm keeping it in the 4ppm range.

So far, so good.