Stray voltage and is a grounding probe needed?

[PharmrJohn]

A ground probe paired with gfci is the only way to go imo. A ground probe without a gfci is downright dangerous

Absolutely. This was the first thing I did. All outlets converted to GFCI together with a ground probe. It is an ABSOLUTE requirement in my book. Water + electricity = very bad things.

 

[Paul B]

I have been reading your book and mistakenly thought you used coppersafe on everything

Nope, I never used the stuff.

Starting Another tank And am going to construct a reverse under water filter. But wondering about granular size of gravel to use. I have to read the chapter again but if you can guide me would be appreciated Its going to be minimalist with fish. I intend to get small schooling fish to lower the bio load

I use dolomite gravel probably only available if you go to Italy and grind up tombstones so crushed coral should work. About the size of rice, not much smaller.

 

[Freenow54]

Everyone should buy Paul B's book. He talks about how to make your own rock .since I spent $800 dollars for what I thought was a magical neccessity this is invaluable. Not going to share for obvious reasons besides the proceeds go to charity and I need my karma intact which is his way of talking. Also a glass cleaner I am definitely doing. I tried to use part of his idea by cutting a slot in a wood dowel to reach those " hard to get at places" ( if you remember that commercial your old ). Anyway I could not get a good angle for it to work. His idea should be perfect

 

[Freenow54]

Forgot to say used a razor blade which surprised me you can still get good old Wilkinson again I'm old his idea uses one as well

 

[Paul B]

I use stainless steel one sided blades for the thing

 

[Freenow54]

Do yourself a favour and look up GFI as apposed to Arc protection. To Answer the ground protection I use Volt -Control specifically sates to plug it in to the wall receptacle not a power bar Why I do not know you have to ask someone with more knowledge

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Is everything on a GCFI outlet or inline GFCI breaker?

If not grounding probes are very dangerous.

Can you please clarify this? I have both grounding probes and GFCI. BUT the grounding probes connect directly to the wall outlet and not the GFCI. Is this ok?!

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is okay.

 

[Freenow54]

Can you please clarify this? I have both grounding probes and GFCI. BUT the grounding probes connect directly to the wall outlet and not the GFCI. Is this ok?!

Yes according to the manufactu

rer

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes according to the manufactu

rer

That directive is simply CYA language aimed at reducing liability for ungrounded extension cords, and having to deal with tech support questions or losses as a result of such…

You can plug the grounding probe into any grounded receptacle, be it the wall, a power strip, or an extension cord. It is all the same thing.

 

[Freenow54]

That directive is simply CYA language aimed at reducing liability for ungrounded extension cords, and having to deal with tech support questions or losses as a result of such…

You can plug the grounding probe into any grounded receptacle, be it the wall, a power strip, or an extension cord. It is all the same thing.

Well I would Agree but I got gunned in the past because someone on the site thought I was putting it into a power bar

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well I would Agree but I got gunned in the past because someone on the site thought I was putting it into a power bar

Most people (understandably) know very little about electricity, thus the instructions on the package and misinformed advice on sites like this :)

By definition the ECG (equipment grounding conductor -- middle pin) of the receptacle is common throughout the system and tied (bonded) to the neutral at the main service disconnect (your breaker panel in most cases). So the metal frame of your toaster, the metal frame on your aquarium pump or light fixture, etc. are all tied to this common ground. For an aquarium grounding probe to work properly, it merely needs to be tied to this common ground system -- anywhere -- be it the center prong of the receptacle or an extension cord plugged into that receptacle. It is all just "wire" that goes back to that common ground.

 

[Freenow54]

Most people (understandably) know very little about electricity, thus the instructions on the package and misinformed advice on sites like this :)

By definition the ECG (equipment grounding conductor -- middle pin) of the receptacle is common throughout the system and tied (bonded) to the neutral at the main service disconnect (your breaker panel in most cases). So the metal frame of your toaster, the metal frame on your aquarium pump or light fixture, etc. are all tied to this common ground. For an aquarium grounding probe to work properly, it merely needs to be tied to this common ground system -- anywhere -- be it the center prong of the receptacle or an extension cord plugged into that receptacle. It is all just "wire" that goes back to that common ground.

Yes Thanks like I said I did not see the problem unless the GFI built int the power Bar could disrupt it. So Since you like electricity . I have been trying to explain in the past to people the difference between a GFI, and an ARC protector. Two entirely different things. I have had personal experience with why we all should install them. You can do one receptacle or the entire house. Feel free to give your opinion, I developed mine after sharing my Near burnt house down experience with a master electrician friend of mine. All caused by not having a drip leg on a power head electrical cord

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes Thanks like I said I did not see the problem unless the GFI built int the power Bar could disrupt it.

GFCI will not break the equipment ground, just the hot and neutral - so the probe will still "work" with a GFCI extension cord or power strip :)

So Since you like electricity . I have been trying to explain in the past to people the difference between a GFI, and an ARC protector. Two entirely different things.

Correct, but the distinction becomes a bit murky, in that some arc fault interrupters, also contain ground fault interrupters - in other words they are combo devices. But, yes the two types of protection serve very different purposes.

In very general terms:

The ground fault interrupter simply checks to make sure the amount of current that enters that flows out through the hot wire is the same amount that flows back through the device. If there is a difference, it means current is faulting (going someplace it shouldn't, like ground) and trips the circuit.

The arc fault interrupter scans what is connected to it for specific types of pulses in the electricity that would indicate sparking. These devices have improved over the years, but can still be prone to nuisance tripping with devices that create sparking - for example, brushed electric motors, devices that have mechanical relays or other pulsing type of current usage... vacuum cleaners, arc and fluorescent lamps, power tools and motors, tv and appliances, some poorly filtered AV equipment, microwaves, etc.

I have had personal experience with why we all should install them. You can do one receptacle or the entire house. Feel free to give your opinion, I developed mine after sharing my Near burnt house down experience with a master electrician friend of mine. All caused by not having a drip leg on a power head electrical cord

Let's make a couple of very basic distinctions here.


1 - standard circuit breakers in your electric panel are there to protect the wire, not you.
2 - circuit breakers in appliances are to protect the wires/components in the appliance, not you!
3 - GFCIs are there to protect you from shock or electrocution.
4 - AFCIs are added protection to protect the wire and the structure from arc related fires.

The issue with the AFCI is that it is more prone to nuisance trips that the GFCI. However, saltwater and salt creep, especially on or near plug strips, ,etc. can easily cause current to flow from HOT to NEUTRAL through the salt creep and/or the dampness can allow carbon tracking between the two. If this faulting does not reach the ground lug, then it will NOT trip the GFCI but does have the real chance of starting an arcing fire. This is where arc fault protections comes into play.

As I said, modern arc fault devices are less prone to nuisance trips than prior generations. I would certainly agree that protecting your home and person by using a combination of both arc and ground fault protection is a good idea. One could always remove the arc fault protection and just go with gfc if nuisance trips are a problem for a given setup.

These individual or combo devices can be in breaker form (whole circuit) or individual receptacles.

 

[Freenow54]

GFCI will not break the equipment ground, just the hot and neutral - so the probe will still "work" with a GFCI extension cord or power strip :)


Correct, but the distinction becomes a bit murky, in that some arc fault interrupters, also contain ground fault interrupters - in other words they are combo devices. But, yes the two types of protection serve very different purposes.

In very general terms:

The ground fault interrupter simply checks to make sure the amount of current that enters that flows out through the hot wire is the same amount that flows back through the device. If there is a difference, it means current is faulting (going someplace it shouldn't, like ground) and trips the circuit.

The arc fault interrupter scans what is connected to it for specific types of pulses in the electricity that would indicate sparking. These devices have improved over the years, but can still be prone to nuisance tripping with devices that create sparking - for example, brushed electric motors, devices that have mechanical relays or other pulsing type of current usage... vacuum cleaners, arc and fluorescent lamps, power tools and motors, tv and appliances, some poorly filtered AV equipment, microwaves, etc.


Let's make a couple of very basic distinctions here.


1 - standard circuit breakers in your electric panel are there to protect the wire, not you.
2 - circuit breakers in appliances are to protect the wires/components in the appliance, not you!
3 - GFCIs are there to protect you from shock or electrocution.
4 - AFCIs are added protection to protect the wire and the structure from arc related fires.

The issue with the AFCI is that it is more prone to nuisance trips that the GFCI. However, saltwater and salt creep, especially on or near plug strips, ,etc. can easily cause current to flow from HOT to NEUTRAL through the salt creep and/or the dampness can allow carbon tracking between the two. If this faulting does not reach the ground lug, then it will NOT trip the GFCI but does have the real chance of starting an arcing fire. This is where arc fault protections comes into play.

As I said, modern arc fault devices are less prone to nuisance trips than prior generations. I would certainly agree that protecting your home and person by using a combination of both arc and ground fault protection is a good idea. One could always remove the arc fault protection and just go with gfc if nuisance trips are a problem for a given setup.

These individual or combo devices can be in breaker form (whole circuit) or individual receptacles.

Excellent. Now i will reveal what happened I came home from work and my wife luckily had left an hour before and does not know to this day what happened or I would have been listing all my stuff for sale, I foolishly ****** ( Note for everyone ) did not have a drip leg from my power head to a power bar. I smelt ozone which is unforgettable and ran around looking and smelling for the source . Obviously went to the aquarium in short order. The power bar was sizzling away quite happily and melting , I used to have a picture but my old computer crashed. Scary moment and caused by Hang on the back skimmer failure and it overflowed

 

[BeanAnimal]

article I wrote a decade or two ago on the subject…. Likely far too wordy and needs to be updated….

That said, there are more poorly designed power strips out there than there a well designed.

Power Strip Safety | BeanAnimal's Reef

Why most outlet strips (plug strips, outlet bars) are not suitable for aquariums and can cause injury or death. What to look for in a suitable and safe product.

beananimal.com

 

[Freenow54]

Interesting article I thank you and I hope this spreads. I dealt with an American supplier ie made in USA, for what a lot of people call a wall wart. Just a step down transformer to supply much lower MA milliamps ( this is for others to read ). I will look there and replace all my power bars $$$$. Another warning . Dating back probably 10 years I was the certified health and safety member at an HVAC company. Our Manager used to print off warnings from the Electrical Safety Authority. I don't know what your equivalent is. Anyway things from China were found with fake UL Underwriters stickers no stickers things that killed people burnt homes down yet nothing done about it $$$$$. Covering a lot of night lights and even a coffee bean grinder ( no offense lol ) So buyer beware

 

[cj02]

It does not matter if there is a GFI it only checks voltage in and out of the equipment itself.

A GFCI does not check/monitor voltage, it monitors amps or milliamps to be exact.
It will not prevent stray voltage.

120 volts will not kill you; heck 50,000 volts will not kill you, most stun guns are at least 30,000 volts.

It's the amps behind the volts that kills you. Less than 1/2 amp can kill and most household outlets are 15-20 amps. Running a grounding probe without GFCI protection can kill you. Electricity is going to take any path it can to ground. A tank that becomes energized with electricity with a grounding probe will generally run fine unnoticed as the tank water becomes part of the circuit UNTIL you put your hand in the water. Now it has another path to the ground or neutral side of the circuit - through your body - very bad and deadly.

A tank with a grounding probe and GFCI will protect the user by immediately tripping when there becomes an imbalance in milliamps out and back into the outlet, cutting the power - protecting the user from electrocution.

When you say grounding probe with GFCI, do you mean that the probe itself needs to be plugged into a GFCI? or the equipment needs to be plugged into a GFCI, or both the probe AND the equipment need to be plugged into a GFCI. Thanks.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The equipment should be plugged into the GFCI. The ground probe can be plugged into any grounded receptacle.

 

[cj02]

The equipment should be plugged into the GFCI. The ground probe can be plugged into any grounded receptacle.

That clears things up for me. Much appreciated.