Suddenly sick tang

[CindyKz]

I brought home a 3 inch (ish) two spot bristletooth on 10/3. Put him in a 10 gal QT with HOB filter, sponge from my sump (it was only in there a week or so though), heater, pvc, and decoration to hide in. Added a 30ml bottle of bacteria in a bottle (sorry my brain is blanking on the name...the purple one. Biosomething.). He took a few days to eat but otherwise seemed ok and for the past few days has eaten heartily, swimming out and about in the tank. Ammonia checked nightly was undetectable. I was off today for Columbus day and more of the same. I checked on him midafternoon and he was swimming about happily. I have observed no spots or ragged fins, no difficulty breathing and no prophylactic treatment given.

Tonight around 7 I went in to find him stuck to the intake of my HOB . I gently removed him. He's swimming wobbily, having trouble staying lateral, laying down at times and sometimes vertically head down. Breathing is rapid and heavy but not extremely so. Pectoral fin seems suddenly ragged, I would bet a paycheck it wasn't like that this morning. And since I was off work, I took my time looking (nothing else to do).

I immediately checked ammonia and while the timer was going on that added Prime. The ammonia was negative ( took the sample prior to adding the Prime). I checked nitrites, also 0 but that sample was drawn after adding Prime so I don't know how valuable it is. I did a 50% water change anyway...salinity was 1.019 as it was when we left the LFS, so not a water quality issue I don't think.

Based on above I started prazipro thinking maybe flukes. I don't know if he'd handle a FW dip well I'm hesitant to try, if he's weak enough to get stuck to my little HOB. My question is should I go straight to Cupramine based on the fact that he's a tang? I can't see anything resembling ick or velvet.

TIA.

 

[rainmaker]

I would think he may of got to close to intake an got stuck had a wrasse that went down over flow into sump was little weak for couple days then recovered may just try some garlic on seaweed you feed an maybe ok in a few

 

[4FordFamily]

Wow so many things it could be — at this point you’ll need to get an ammonia alert badge by seachem (reliable during QT) and unless you see spots or obvious symptoms I would lay off of copper until the fish recovers.

Also, since you dosed Prime you cannot use copper for several days, @Humblefish i believe said 2-3

How is the oxygen saturation? Do you have a bubbler, or a powerhead aimed at the top?

 

[CindyKz]

Wow so many things it could be — at this point you’ll need to get an ammonia alert badge by seachem (reliable during QT) and unless you see spots or obvious symptoms I would lay off of copper until the fish recovers.

Also, since you dosed Prime you cannot use copper for several days, @Humblefish i believe said 2-3

How is the oxygen saturation? Do you have a bubbler, or a powerhead aimed at the top?

Thank you for the reminder about the Ammonia alert badge. I reminded hubs (on his way to Petco) to pick up one. I usually rely on nightly Salifert tests but that won't work now...

I went ahead and started copper...after rereading descriptions of velvet (I have never actually seen it) and shining a light on the poor guy I think that's probably it. He seems to have a dark maroon-gold sheen that he didn't have before. That, plus the rapid onset, worries me. He is barely swimming now. I started a fresh tank and moved the fish so the prime isn't an issue. Hubs is on the way to Petco for more Biospira. I just hope I manage the cupramine ok, I've never had to use it. The directions say to dose now, then again in 48 hours with a final concentration of 0.5 mg/L. My concentration tonight looked to be 0.25 mg/L so that should be appropriate I think?

O2 sat is fine, I had the HOB and a bubbler going in the old tank and moved to the new.

Any other thoughts are appreciated.

 

[4FordFamily]

Thank you for the reminder about the Ammonia alert badge. I reminded hubs (on his way to Petco) to pick up one. I usually rely on nightly Salifert tests but that won't work now...

I went ahead and started copper...after rereading descriptions of velvet (I have never actually seen it) and shining a light on the poor guy I think that's probably it. He seems to have a dark maroon-gold sheen that he didn't have before. That, plus the rapid onset, worries me. He is barely swimming now. I started a fresh tank and moved the fish so the prime isn't an issue. Hubs is on the way to Petco for more Biospira. I just hope I manage the cupramine ok, I've never had to use it. The directions say to dose now, then again in 48 hours with a final concentration of 0.5 mg/L. My concentration tonight looked to be 0.25 mg/L so that should be appropriate I think?

O2 sat is fine, I had the HOB and a bubbler going in the old tank and moved to the new.

Any other thoughts are appreciated.

.5-.6 PPM is what I use with cupramine

 

[CindyKz]

.5-.6 PPM is what I use with cupramine

Thank you. Do you go to that concentration immediately or over 2 days (as per the instructions on the bottle)?

I know time is of the essence with velvet.

 

[CindyKz]

The more I look at him, the more positive I am that it is velvet :'(

 

[Humblefish]

Thank you. Do you go to that concentration immediately or over 2 days (as per the instructions on the bottle)?

Because you transferred him to a fresh tank, you've got 48 hrs to raise the copper to full therapeutic.

In the meantime, he needs temporary relief to dislodge some of the trophonts which are clogging up his gills. This can be accomplished via a FW dip and acriflavine bath as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

 

[CindyKz]

Because you transferred him to a fresh tank, you've got 48 hrs to raise the copper to full therapeutic.

In the meantime, he needs temporary relief to dislodge some of the trophonts which are clogging up his gills. This can be accomplished via a FW dip and acriflavine bath as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

Thanks very much for weighing in. I considered a FW dip but am hesitant because right now he can't even remain upright...I'm worried the stress would be the end of him. OTOH, not breathing would be the end of him too...so I guess that is my answer. Unfortunately I don't have any acriflavine and won't have any until tomorrow evening at the earliest but the FW dip alone will hopefully provide some relief.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks very much for weighing in. I considered a FW dip but am hesitant because right now he can't even remain upright...I'm worried the stress would be the end of him. OTOH, not breathing would be the end of him too...so I guess that is my answer. Unfortunately I don't have any acriflavine and won't have any until tomorrow evening at the earliest but the FW dip alone will hopefully provide some relief.

I'm gonna level with you here. If the FW dip ends his life, he wasn't meant long for this world anyway. I'm sorry.

 

[CindyKz]

I'm gonna level with you here. If the FW dip ends his life, he wasn't meant long for this world anyway. I'm sorry.

True statement. When I went in the room his gills weren't moving. I picked him up to take a pic and he took a few gasping breaths so I tried...but no avail. Appreciate your support. I might post the pics tomorrow but they don't show much - I feel like velvet just doesn't show up well. But I am sad and going to bed. I really appreciate yours and @4FordFamily 's support tonight!!

 

[Big G]

I'm gonna level with you here. If the FW dip ends his life, he wasn't meant long for this world anyway. I'm sorry.

A sad all too familiar event. Trying to learn here. Humblefish, is this sudden onset after a brief "past few days has eaten heartily, swimming out and about in the tank" and then the fish suddenly collapses into a downward spiral. Is this indicative of a fish that was being housed in a weak copper treatment to hold off full blown disease until shipped/delivered to hobbyist. Or am I off base here?

 

[Humblefish]

True statement. When I went in the room his gills weren't moving. I picked him up to take a pic and he took a few gasping breaths so I tried...but no avail. Appreciate your support. I might post the pics tomorrow but they don't show much - I feel like velvet just doesn't show up well. But I am sad and going to bed. I really appreciate yours and @4FordFamily 's support tonight!!

You did what you had to do - If he had velvet, he needed a FW dip to clear his gills. Otherwise, he would have died a slow death due to asphyxiation. If nothing else, you put him out of his misery.

FYI; Velvet is running rampant right now. I recommend prophylactically treating all fish for it with either copper or Chloroquine phosphate.

Is this indicative of a fish that was being housed in a weak copper treatment to hold off full blown disease until shipped/delivered to hobbyist.

^^ That is EXACTLY what I think happened here. When a fish is kept in subtherapeutic copper, symptoms are suppressed and it can take up to 30 days for full blown velvet to return. Oftentimes it happens just like this, with little to no warning.

 

[Katrina71]

Sorry for your loss

 

[4FordFamily]

Thank you. Do you go to that concentration immediately or over 2 days (as per the instructions on the bottle)?

I know time is of the essence with velvet.

Over a few days typically but with velvet I do it within a 24 hours

 

[4FordFamily]

A sad all too familiar event. Trying to learn here. Humblefish, is this sudden onset after a brief "past few days has eaten heartily, swimming out and about in the tank" and then the fish suddenly collapses into a downward spiral. Is this indicative of a fish that was being housed in a weak copper treatment to hold off full blown disease until shipped/delivered to hobbyist. Or am I off base here?

It could be any number of things but what you say isn’t unlikely. This is an unfortunately common occurrence.

 

[Brew12]

A sad all too familiar event. Trying to learn here. Humblefish, is this sudden onset after a brief "past few days has eaten heartily, swimming out and about in the tank" and then the fish suddenly collapses into a downward spiral. Is this indicative of a fish that was being housed in a weak copper treatment to hold off full blown disease until shipped/delivered to hobbyist. Or am I off base here?

I understand why LFS's do it, but I get upset every time I see something like this. IMO the only defense a hobbyist has is to begin copper or CP treatments within a week (preferably sooner) of getting a new fish into QT. Otherwise, it just goes too quick once they start showing symptoms.

 

[CindyKz]

This makes me sad too. It is the 2nd fish in a row for me.

I've always fallen squarely in the "don't treat prohylactically" camp because ALL drugs have negative effects as well as positive and I have always believed it unfair to subject our fish friends to harmful effects unless absolutely necessary. But this past few weeks has me rethinking a lot of things :'(

 

[CindyKz]

I understand why LFS's do it, but I get upset every time I see something like this. IMO the only defense a hobbyist has is to begin copper or CP treatments within a week (preferably sooner) of getting a new fish into QT. Otherwise, it just goes too quick once they start showing symptoms.

I understand why they treat, but not why they wouldn't treat appropriately (ie at correct levels).

 

[Big G]

I understand why LFS's do it, but I get upset every time I see something like this. IMO the only defense a hobbyist has is to begin copper or CP treatments within a week (preferably sooner) of getting a new fish into QT. Otherwise, it just goes too quick once they start showing symptoms.

A month ago, I had a yellow tang doing beautifully for the first 3 days of placing it in the QT. And then a very rapid downward spiral very similar to the OP's. By the time I realized what was going on, it was already too late. As well for the other 4 fish that came along with him. Each one seemed to have differing externally appearing resistance to the velvet. But, internally they were all incredibly damaged. Sad. Really sad. So now the conundrum. What do you all suggest. No waiting for the fish to adjust to the QT, but rather to immediately begin prophylactically treating all incoming fish? And specifically, suggestions on how to ramp up the copper. Is it wise to slowly ramp up or dose as if there is full on velvet evident, even if not apparent at the time?