Switching to < 6500K for growth, then back to > 10000K for color?

[Doctorgori]

The cost of retrofitting to T5 and the $200 on bulbs is whats driving this battery of questions. Also since I'm starting all over with frags anyway, I can take some educated risk in lighting. So I'm wondering if you could maximize growth during frag/growth/encrusting phase, using cheaper 6500K's or combination, then later gradually switch to more expensive blue emitting >12K for coral color

Thing is I keep hearing anymore that red wavelength are detrimental, will brown corals, stunt growth, et. Yet contrast that to coral color and growth in a shallow reef receiving all the suns radiation including red light (note: "shallow reef", not deep "blue" reef). I also have heard in contrast that some commercial growers even report faster growth .
So what gives?
I've mulled over this for this for years even got ran off the boards for speaking anti-blue blasphemy. But recently I got inspired to write about this dichotomy in part thanks to this Video (FF to around 7:00 ?) Hope that link is OK, I'm a big fan/subscriber ...
In contrast to that I'm also a Fan of Tidal Gardens, but even in a greenhouse, lit by natural sunlight, still chooses to use artificial bluish light. Just wondering what the missing variable is here vs. corals grown outdoors.
@ any commercial outfits: Anyone use less than 10K on the frag tanks?

I watched all the BRS vids on coloration, especially the explanation of lighting effects vs. chemical/biological efflorescence vs inflorescence. Good job, but still I wonder if daylight is getting a bad rap or there is something still not fully understood here.
Are there any surviving corals or hobbyist left from the early "Pre-Radion Epoch" ? what bulbs did you use? growth? coloring? Any daylight tank shots from back then?

 

[Spare time]

Red, from my understanding, acts as an indicator of depth and signals a coral to close up and protect itself. Shallow waters can be extremely difficult for many corals, with plenty of SPS only photosynthesizing at dusk and dawn while shielding themselves for midday. Corals such as porites will grow much larger further out in the water than in shallow areas. Remember that their natural habitat does not equal their ideal habitat. Nature never provides ideal conditions. Essentially for corals, you want to match the light spectrum of your t5 to spectral sensitivity graphs of chlorophyll a and c2. There are secondary photpigments but these typically cover an overlapping range or a bit of yellow and green.

 

[Doctorgori]

Red, from my understanding, acts as an indicator of depth and signals a coral to close up and protect itself. Shallow waters can be extremely difficult for many corals, with plenty of SPS only photosynthesizing at dusk and dawn while shielding themselves for midday. Corals such as porites will grow much larger further out in the water than in shallow areas. Remember that their natural habitat does not equal their ideal habitat. Nature never provides ideal conditions. Essentially for corals, you want to match the light spectrum of your t5 to spectral sensitivity graphs of chlorophyll a and c2. There are secondary photpigments but these typically cover an overlapping range or a bit of yellow and green.

Appreciate the time it took to explain that; informative and not condecending, thank you (I was hearing crickets and worried I made another dud topic)
Anyway, truly not debating, just more confused by both experience/observation and the lack of clarity in the hobby with regard to coral growth and color; 2 different metrics of heath.

I have some rudimentary understanding wavelengths and propagation of visible light through different media’s like water vs air. I also have a beginners knowledge on trace elements vs color. But its my own experience using 5500K MH coupled with 2nd hand info coming from Asian/Paific growers reporting faster growth under warmer color temperatures .I’m only suggesting something else might be amiss and not as simple as providing bluer wavelengths of light (or omitting reds, greens and yellows.

Anyway, makes sense shallow reefs are over saturated. Also, you make me wonder about

 

[Chibils]

I know many frag farmers relied on 400w Ushio 6500k lamps for quick growth back in the day, but that may have been a matter of a useful full spectrum and tons of PAR vs the specific red/yellow bands it employed.

 

[fcmatt]

What bulbs are you proposing for each setup?

And is $200 the diff in cost for 6500k versus 10000k?

 

[jda]

You can do exactly that. I have a tank that I sometimes use for frags, but when it is running, it is full of 6500k $5 T5 bulbs and the stuff grows very quickly. A lot of the corals look really good too.

 

[techdef]

I know many frag farmers relied on 400w Ushio 6500k lamps for quick growth back in the day, but that may have been a matter of a useful full spectrum and tons of PAR vs the specific red/yellow bands it employed.

I used to run the 250 Ushio over my clam and gorgonian tank. Frankly those two things loved the 6500k

 

[Chibils]

I used to run the 250 Ushio over my clam and gorgonian tank. Frankly those two things loved the 6500k

Ushio makes some great lamps. I'm really disappointed that they seem to have discontinued their 250w 14k. My favorite of all time. Crisp, clean white, good coloration, really everything you could ask for.

 

[Doctorgori]

I know many frag farmers relied on 400w Ushio 6500k lamps for quick growth back in the day, but that may have been a matter of a useful full spectrum and tons of PAR vs the specific red/yellow bands it employed.

Frag farmers, Pacific, Asia ...those were the main keywords I recall when hearing about the warm light thing from rumor central...TBH no facts, just sound bites

What bulbs are you proposing for each setup?

And is $200 the diff in cost for 6500k versus 10000k?

I am doing 8 T5 bulbs + 4ea Kessil 350/360’s over a 72” 210G : 4 x 24W (4ea actinic) & 4 x 54W (2 ATI purple plus & 2ea “blue” ) at best thats between $170 -$200 whereas Amazon sells horticulture T5 6500Ks all day long at about 5 for 20ish
....I

You can do exactly that. I have a tank that I sometimes use for frags, but when it is running, it is full of 6500k $5 T5 bulbs and the stuff grows very quickly. A lot of the corals look really good too.

Hows the color? and do they color up in 10K light ? If you were to guess a percentage/performance difference, what would it be, roughly:

appreciate the replies

 

[Doctorgori]

I know many frag farmers relied on 400w Ushio 6500k lamps for quick growth back in the day, but that may have been a matter of a useful full spectrum and tons of PAR vs the specific red/yellow bands it employed.

was that like around 98 - 02 ish when Radiums were like $70 per bulb ?

 

[techdef]

was that like around 98 - 02 ish when Radiums were like $70 per bulb ?

Yep. Right when we started swapping out for 250DEs and T5s since the reflectors worked so well... ah the hot hot hot old days

 

[A. grandis]

Simplifying here...
I'm not sure why some of us come to think of exciting growth or colors approaching different methods and using different bulbs to rush it out, but...
My .02 for you is to stick with a particular halide bulb (or combo of fluorescent bulbs) and forget this rush control over things.
You will be far less stressed and will enjoy more the corals that way.
Choose "whiter" or "bluer". Coloring takes time and the reaction is part of a natural process of growth and stability.
The truth is also that many corals will show amazing colors under a "6500K spectrum", while other species will show better colors under "10000K", and that is also true for "20000K". Need to select your taste for final results? Set up 2 or 3 systems with different bulbs (or combos in the case of T5s)...
Need strong and solid growth rate? Get some halides running there! Any "spectrum"!
Having the same colonies under different lights will show you the different results. Halides rule for growth and some pigments that T5s and LEDs can't provide because of the complete spectrum provided by halides.
Best results ever will be under halides and T5s as a supplement, period!
My best results of growth and color were under Iwasaki 6500K and 2 actinic blue tubes back in the day!
I agree 100% with Melev in that video!
Make sure you understand that what you see from some companies is what they want you to see, so they can maintain their businesses running selling their ideas. Not a wrong thing! Not criticizing them either! Just the way things normally are in business. Sure they do a great job publishing some of the information and we should appreciate that very much. The hobby is growing a lot that way too.
Enjoy your corals and good luck with your choices!

 

[fcmatt]

Dang. Grow em as cheap as possible and then take pics under 24k like the pros do ;-)

 

[A. grandis]

Besides, for those who are growing to sell frags, they will end up in a system most likely lit by LEDs, so... Yeah, take those pictures on "blues mode".

 

[Doctorgori]

I had a DIY 72” hood with 2x 175w 5500K MH & 2x VHO actintic driven by a IceCap ballast. Looking back my corals were comparatively drab but gigantic. Back then Euphyllia were cheaper than leathers and I took it for granted frogspawn were cheap and grew fast.

Simplifying here...
I'm not sure why some of us come to think of exciting growth or colors approaching different methods and using different bulbs to rush it out, but...
My .02 for you is to stick with a particular halide bulb (or combo of fluorescent bulbs) and forget this rush control over things.
You will be far less stressed and will enjoy more the corals that way.
Choose "whiter" or "bluer". Coloring takes time and the reaction is part of a natural process of growth and stability.
The truth is also that many corals will show amazing colors under a "6500K spectrum", while other species will show better colors under "10000K", and that is also true for "20000K". Need to select your taste for final results? Set up 2 or 3 systems with different bulbs (or combos in the case of T5s)...
Need strong and solid growth rate? Get some halides running there! Any "spectrum"!
Having the same colonies under different lights will show you the different results. Halides rule for growth and some pigments that T5s and LEDs can't provide because of the complete spectrum provided by halides.
Best results ever will be under halides and T5s as a supplement, period!
My best results of growth and color were under Iwasaki 6500K and 2 actinic blue tubes back in the day!
I agree 100% with Melev in that video!
Make sure you understand that what you see from some companies is what they want you to see, so they can maintain their businesses running selling their ideas. Not a wrong thing! Not criticizing them either! Just the way things normally are in business. Sure they do a great job publishing some of the information and we should appreciate that very much. The hobby is growing a lot that way too.
Enjoy your corals and good luck with your choices!

Apologies in advance but I have ZERO clue who’s who around here, but I’d like to talk to or ask some of the commercial people like Tidal Gardens, WWC and or VIVID and ask them directly why not 6500K’s or sunlight and IF the browning is reversible or temporary.

Times have changed and colorful/cheap stony corals are sorta a paralleled the rise of LED’s. I’ve grown corals during the pre-blue light era but not through or during the transition to LED/stick dom tanks. My concern is irreversible browning or loss of pigment producing host algae’s.

 

[A. grandis]

... My concern is irreversible browning or loss of pigment producing host algae’s.

Basically speaking...
Pigmentation (pigment production and ability to reflect light to be captured by human eye) is oriented by the available quality/type of light (light spectrum and intensity).
The number of zooxanthellae is mainly determined by the amount of intensity, and heat, in regards to light.
Photoperiod plays with both pigmentation and zooxanthellae population.
Other things play also with both like alkalinity, water motion...
Choose the spectrum you like the best and be happy.
You just can't go wrong with halides and/or T5s.
10000K, 14000K are great bulbs to get wonderful growth and amazing colors.
250W is a great deal for relatively shallow tanks (lots of variables here with reflector compatibility and area to be covered!!).
Get some actinic bulbs to satisfy your eyes.
You will find serious growers who use 6500K Iwasaki bulbs and will tell you how fast and colorful their Acros look.
To answer the question:
One can use lower kelvin bulbs for years and still change for higher kelvin bulbs and totally change the colors. Most corals will keep their original ability to change color according to the bulbs you use. The ability to change zooxanthellae population also will be there!!!
Have fun.

 

[Doctorgori]

Basically speaking...
Pigmentation (pigment production and ability to reflect light to be captured by human eye) is oriented by the available quality/type of light (light spectrum and intensity).
The number of zooxanthellae is mainly determined by the amount of intensity, and heat, in regards to light.
Photoperiod plays with both pigmentation and zooxanthellae population.
Other things play also with both like alkalinity, water motion...
Choose the spectrum you like the best and be happy.
You just can't go wrong with halides and/or T5s.
10000K, 14000K are great bulbs to get wonderful growth and amazing colors.
250W is a great deal for relatively shallow tanks (lots of variables here with reflector compatibility and area to be covered!!).
Get some actinic bulbs to satisfy your eyes.
You will find serious growers who use 6500K Iwasaki bulbs and will tell you how fast and colorful their Acros look.
To answer the question:
One can use lower kelvin bulbs for years and still change for higher kelvin bulbs and totally change the colors. Most corals will keep their original ability to change color according to the bulbs you use. The ability to change zooxanthellae population also will be there!!!
Have fun.

That was excellent and I for one ALWAYS appreciate the time it took to regurgitate that for me and everyone else. I stand by my assessment that the whole lighting/color thing is misunderstood and oversimplified to using “blue light” because very competent research points towards blue wavelengths being most essential to host algae. I’ve always said its not the entire picture even when water as medium effects the penetration of visible spectrums (not just visible).

My take away from the above is lower Kelvins affects what you see more so than actual biological changes per se (with over PAR’ing causing protective ejection/browning), I think coral browning is also misunderstood, I know I could use a primer on coral colors again.

My question remains however: if coloring is a temporary condition depending on surrounding lighting; why then does WWC, and other commercial operations still use 10K + and not 6500K given that 10K+ bulbs cost upwards 4X more per bulb. Heck you can cop a whole case of 6500K T5 under $80 easily at your local box retailer.
I know color sells, but if thats temporary, and given all the effort to maximize growth/health, seems a cheap bulb switch is more than worth it.

I haven’t read any new news on UV and other non-visible parts of solar emissions.

 

[Bpb]

why then does WWC, and other commercial ops still use 10K + and not 6500K given that even in Bulk 10K+ bulbs cost upwards 4X more per bulb. You can get a whole case of 6500K T5 easily.

none of those aquaculturists are using halide bulbs in any capacity anymore, and those that supplement with t5’s on their storefront displays typically just use blue bulbs. At least none of those mentioned in this thread. They all carry they ecotech marine badge now. The only two “popular” aquaculture facilities that come to mind who still use metal halide in any capacity are Battlecorals and Live Aquaria. I’m sure there are a handful others out there, and you can never know what garage aquaculturists are doing by and large, but the medium/large side of the industry in the states specifically seems to be dominated by not only leds but ETM specifically. Just an observation.

I take it back, based on a recent video Jason Fox uses a few Radiums on one of his display tanks. All of his prop tanks are blue t5’s and leds

 

[Doctorgori]

none of those aquaculturists are using halide bulbs in any capacity anymore. At least none of those mentioned in this thread. They all carry they ecotech marine badge now. The only two “popular” aquaculture facilities that come to mind who still use metal halide in any capacity are Battlecorals and Live Aquaria. I’m sure there are a handful others out there, and you can never know what garage aquaculturists are doing by and large, but the medium/large side of the industry seems to be dominated by not only leds but ETM specifically. Just an observation.

I’d luv to know the business justification as a XR30 is $840 @ BRS, whereas a 6500K 54W T5 average about $6 ea. Wondering/guessing what the PAR equivalent of a XR30 is in T5’s?
On wager/guessing at its variables: wasted red, yellow, green, spectrum; bulb/parts replacement; cost in PAR per watt; .. not 100% but this time I’m wondering if the new tech justifies replacing the cost/performance of T5 with respect to growing corals, not viewing them. Emphasis on the the narrower goal of biomass cost per dollar.

 

[Bpb]

I’d luv to know the business justification as a XR30 is $840 @ BRS, whereas a 6500K 54W T5 average about $6 ea. Wondering/guessing what the PAR equivalent of a XR30 is in T5’s?
On wager/guessing at its variables: wasted red, yellow, green, spectrum; bulb/parts replacement; cost in PAR per watt; .. not 100% but this time I’m wondering if the new tech justifies replacing the cost/performance of T5 with respect to growing corals, not viewing them. Emphasis on the the narrower goal of biomass cost per dollar.

that would be one of those “machine is too
Big to even care” scenarios for me