Symbiodinium. Got any treatment ideas?

[ScottB]

Hey @ScottB was hoping you could take a look at this and tell me what you think. I have been thinking that this is diatoms all along but starting to think it's something different. It coats things and will build up over time, brushes off and takes days to start back. If I dose vibrant it goes after it but always returns. I'm just trying to figure out what it is and what to do differently that can kick it to the curb but not sure what it really is. I know diatoms are fed by silica but I've had my RODI tested and its zero and have no sand (BB). Parameters are not to crazy, nitrates are 9 and phosphate are .03, I have it in both my frag tank and DT. It will irritate SPS that are having issues (see the pic), so I am not sure what it is or what I can do to move past this stuff.

Let me know if you have any thoughts...thanks.

Looks like a type of diatom or cyano. Tagging @taricha

I would pull back on Vibrant if your sticks are struggling. Not sure if you are following this thread, but you don't want (IMO) Vibrant to build up in your system too much if your seeing any coral stress.

My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

***** EDIT 5-December-2021***** My original speculation was inaccurate. However, it did prompt another hobbyist to run some tests similar to those published in this paper. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33191523/ "This study investigates the utility of bromophenol blue (BPB) as a safe, rapid...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[bishoptf]

Looks like a type of diatom or cyano. Tagging @taricha

I would pull back on Vibrant if your sticks are struggling. Not sure if you are following this thread, but you don't want (IMO) Vibrant to build up in your system too much if your seeing any coral stress.

My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

***** EDIT 5-December-2021***** My original speculation was inaccurate. However, it did prompt another hobbyist to run some tests similar to those published in this paper. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33191523/ "This study investigates the utility of bromophenol blue (BPB) as a safe, rapid...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks, these are new frags just the one doesn't look the best, not sure if it's getting more light than it wants. I'm still trying to figure out how to keep these guys happy, some are and some aren't. I'd like to find something else besides Vibrant that will help minimize it and haven't so far, would like to find something without a carbon source.

I lean more towards diatoms but this tank is over a year old and not sure where the silica is coming from, it just keeps coming, ATO has been tested and is 0 for silica.

I have been following that other thread, wiating for UWC to enlighten us as to why its not quat.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks, these are new frags just the one doesn't look the best, not sure if it's getting more light than it wants. I'm still trying to figure out how to keep these guys happy, some are and some aren't. I'd like to find something else besides Vibrant that will help minimize it and haven't so far, would like to find something without a carbon source.

I lean more towards diatoms but this tank is over a year old and not sure where the silica is coming from, it just keeps coming, ATO has been tested and is 0 for silica.

I have been following that other thread, wiating for UWC to enlighten us as to why its not quat.

If you've had your nutrients bouncing around, or not in balance with each other, I find I get cyano. Cyano can be in different colors and I am leaning that way. We all recognize it when it is red, but it can be green or brown.

The Wiki picture of cyano under a microscope looks like yours. Shoot for a steady relationship between NO3 and PO4 in whatever range your system favors. One of my systems likes 5/.05 the other does better at 10/.1

 

[bishoptf]

If you've had your nutrients bouncing around, or not in balance with each other, I find I get cyano. Cyano can be in different colors and I am leaning that way. We all recognize it when it is red, but it can be green or brown.

The Wiki picture of cyano under a microscope looks like yours. Shoot for a steady relationship between NO3 and PO4 in whatever range your system favors. One of my systems likes 5/.05 the other does better at 10/.1

Thanks I lean more towards diatoms, I just ran an ICP test for this tank and it has high silica numbers. I just do not know where it comes from. I had ATI test my RODI water and it has 0 silicates in it, bare bottom, I don't dose anything in this tank but phosphate and nitrate when needed, all I can think is it's coming from the rock that I have in the tank.

If you see something in the ICP that jumps out let me know.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks I lean more towards diatoms, I just ran an ICP test for this tank and it has high silica numbers. I just do not know where it comes from. I had ATI test my RODI water and it has 0 silicates in it, bare bottom, I don't dose anything in this tank but phosphate and nitrate when needed, all I can think is it's coming from the rock that I have in the tank.

If you see something in the ICP that jumps out let me know.

OK well that is a pretty high number. On the bright side, diatoms aren't toxic, and some members of the CUC crew will eat them IIRC.

As to the source, maybe pose the question over in the chemistry forum?

 

[taricha]

Hey @ScottB was hoping you could take a look at this and tell me what you think. I have been thinking that this is diatoms all along

yeah. This really looks like diatoms to me too.
I would bet on the corals having other issues and the diatoms just showing up in an available rich environment.

 

[djf91]

Hey guys,

I now am also dealing with what appears to be chrysophytes in my 500 gallon reef. They’ve reached plague proportions in the past couple of months. Tank is about 5 months old, started with 300 pounds of old dry pacific rock (formerly live rock) and 50 pounds of live rock from my previous system. I started testing water 3 months in and was shocked to find phosphates at 0.36 and nitrates at close to 0. So far I’ve tried using vibrant which did work a little bit but stopped using after a couple of weeks. Right now I’m trying to bring nitrate up and phosphate down and have gotten it to phosphate: 0.13 and nitrate 1-2 using lanthunum chloride/GFO and dosing neonitrate. I scrub the rocks and vacuum the sand but the chrysophytes and GHA come back within several days. Would you guys suggest another round of vibrant? Is this stuff safe to use? I’ve been reading the thread about it in the sps forum. I have two small tester acro frags in the tank but really wouldnt care if I lost them.

 

[bishoptf]

Hey guys,

I now am also dealing with what appears to be chrysophytes in my 500 gallon reef. They’ve reached plague proportions in the past couple of months. Tank is about 5 months old, started with 300 pounds of old dry pacific rock (formerly live rock) and 50 pounds of live rock from my previous system. I started testing water 3 months in and was shocked to find phosphates at 0.36 and nitrates at close to 0. So far I’ve tried using vibrant which did work a little bit but stopped using after a couple of weeks. Right now I’m trying to bring nitrate up and phosphate down and have gotten it to phosphate: 0.13 and nitrate 1-2 using lanthunum chloride/GFO and dosing neonitrate. I scrub the rocks and vacuum the sand but the chrysophytes and GHA come back within several days. Would you guys suggest another round of vibrant? Is this stuff safe to use? I’ve been reading the thread about it in the sps forum. I have two small tester acro frags in the tank but really wouldnt care if I lost them.

@ScottB and @taricha know way more than I do, but from what I have learned from those two is you really need to look at it under a microscope and make sure thats what you are dealing with since there is a LOT of overlap from looking at stuff. That would be my first action is to get a scope and see what you have, treatment is different based on what you are dealing with.

Scott put this great guide together and covers everything - I would take some pics and post them to the main dino thread based on what you found. IF they really are chrysophytes and not moving then from what scott has said Vibrant has been one of the only things that has worked for him, but it's not a cure all and comes with risks, looks like vibrant may contain an algaecide - might want to read this thread also - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-speculation-vibrant-has-some-fluconazole-in-it.867114/

I have used vibrant and continue to use it sparingly, ymmv though, but it is something that MAY help depending on what you really have.

 

[ScottB]

Hey guys,

I now am also dealing with what appears to be chrysophytes in my 500 gallon reef. They’ve reached plague proportions in the past couple of months. Tank is about 5 months old, started with 300 pounds of old dry pacific rock (formerly live rock) and 50 pounds of live rock from my previous system. I started testing water 3 months in and was shocked to find phosphates at 0.36 and nitrates at close to 0. So far I’ve tried using vibrant which did work a little bit but stopped using after a couple of weeks. Right now I’m trying to bring nitrate up and phosphate down and have gotten it to phosphate: 0.13 and nitrate 1-2 using lanthunum chloride/GFO and dosing neonitrate. I scrub the rocks and vacuum the sand but the chrysophytes and GHA come back within several days. Would you guys suggest another round of vibrant? Is this stuff safe to use? I’ve been reading the thread about it in the sps forum. I have two small tester acro frags in the tank but really wouldnt care if I lost them.

Right now I cannot add much to what @Tom Bishop has posted.

I guess the old rock was PO4 loaded which is fine. Adding Neonitro was spot on. Your bacteria cannot process PO4 well in the absence of NO3.

KEEP MEASURING both. I probably wouldn't even refresh on the GFO too soon as the bacteria colony will continue working down PO4 (probably) now that you have some nitrates.

As to chyrysophytes, yes, I have to give some credit to a very cautious and deliberate use of Vibrant. There were two other factors at play then that may have contributed:
a) One spot Foxface. I will never reef without one. Eats everything except coral.
b) I was also bringing down both PO4 and NO3 over that span. 15/.15 to 5/.05

Lastly, I did see an intermediate conversion from chrysos to some GHA. I kept going with the modest Vibrant dosing (clean tank level) and much of the GHA disappeared. The way it melted scared me, and thus the "My Speculation" thread.

Without much coral, I would not fret as much. Once you are loaded up with some nice SPS, IMO, the story changes dramatically. Be afraid.

 

[djf91]

Right now I cannot add much to what @Tom Bishop has posted.

I guess the old rock was PO4 loaded which is fine. Adding Neonitro was spot on. Your bacteria cannot process PO4 well in the absence of NO3.

KEEP MEASURING both. I probably wouldn't even refresh on the GFO too soon as the bacteria colony will continue working down PO4 (probably) now that you have some nitrates.

As to chyrysophytes, yes, I have to give some credit to a very cautious and deliberate use of Vibrant. There were two other factors at play then that may have contributed:
a) One spot Foxface. I will never reef without one. Eats everything except coral.
b) I was also bringing down both PO4 and NO3 over that span. 15/.15 to 5/.05

Lastly, I did see an intermediate conversion from chrysos to some GHA. I kept going with the modest Vibrant dosing (clean tank level) and much of the GHA disappeared. The way it melted scared me, and thus the "My Speculation" thread.

Without much coral, I would not fret as much. Once you are loaded up with some nice SPS, IMO, the story changes dramatically. Be afraid.

I know the only definitive way to identify these is with a microscope but I'm about 99% sure its chrysophytes and not Dino's. I've had Dino's in past systems and beat them with UV. This appears different to me, more light brown in color and globular.

I figured that, yes, the old rock had some P04 bound in it but I guess only time will tell how much :/ . I'll also admit that setting this system up was a marathon, and so for the first couple of months I had kicked back and watched things unfold with minimal testing or intervention. My TDS from RODI effluent was running at 5 after 4 months in and I had also let my Alk. drop to 6.4. So, pretty much the perfect storm of neglect to let these little guys take over. Unsurprisingly my coralline had started to die back at this time.

I'm now back on a testing regime and determined to beat them.

Course of action will likely consist of getting Alk. up to 9 dkh, reduce phosphates to .05 and bring nitrates up to 10. TDS is also 0 now after having added new RODI filters. Additionally, I think I will go back to using Vibrant as you were doing, ScottB. I did notice some die off when using this previously, but I had only dosed it 3 times over the course of 2 weeks, so likely not long enough.

Does Vibrant linger in the system/ is there any chance of it causing long term effects such as how heavy metals or phosphates might do? Given my system volume, would it be more cost effective to use Algae-fix? and is this product safe?

Also, ScottB, did you witness your foxface actually eating this stuff?

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[ScottB]

I know the only definitive way to identify these is with a microscope but I'm about 99% sure its chrysophytes and not Dino's. I've had Dino's in past systems and beat them with UV. This appears different to me, more light brown in color and globular.

I figured that, yes, the old rock had some P04 bound in it but I guess only time will tell how much :/ . I'll also admit that setting this system up was a marathon, and so for the first couple of months I had kicked back and watched things unfold with minimal testing or intervention. My TDS from RODI effluent was running at 5 after 4 months in and I had also let my Alk. drop to 6.4. So, pretty much the perfect storm of neglect to let these little guys take over. Unsurprisingly my coralline had started to die back at this time.

I'm now back on a testing regime and determined to beat them.

Course of action will likely consist of getting Alk. up to 9 dkh, reduce phosphates to .05 and bring nitrates up to 10. TDS is also 0 now after having added new RODI filters. Additionally, I think I will go back to using Vibrant as you were doing, ScottB. I did notice some die off when using this previously, but I had only dosed it 3 times over the course of 2 weeks, so likely not long enough.

Does Vibrant linger in the system/ is there any chance of it causing long term effects such as how heavy metals or phosphates might do? Given my system volume, would it be more cost effective to use Algae-fix? and is this product safe?

Also, ScottB, did you witness your foxface actually eating this stuff?

Thanks for the help everyone!

You said "globular" and yeah, that is a perfect description. Also, the loss (or consumption) of coralline is another red flag IME.

I did not witness direct consumption by the foxface, but a pretty strong correlation. I have 4 tanks across 2 systems. Two of the tanks had foxface and no chrysos. The two without foxface had chrysos. Now all my tanks have foxface. They are my favorite utility fish.

Vibrant: knowing what I know (or believe) now, I would not use Vibrant in a major SPS tank -- acropora in particular. Otherwise, I think it is safe enough to have a place when used cautiously. As to the accumulation question, I really don't know. I have asked the question a couple times and don't seem to get a high conviction answer. Or I don't understand the answer. Something about "it does not bind to dead surfaces, but only to live tissue". Not sure what to make of that.

Back to chrysos. I really tried MANY different things with patience. I do feel like Vibrant was a key (if not THE key) to resolving. I did not set up a control group to separate the effects. Good luck!

 

[djf91]

You said "globular" and yeah, that is a perfect description. Also, the loss (or consumption) of coralline is another red flag IME.

I did not witness direct consumption by the foxface, but a pretty strong correlation. I have 4 tanks across 2 systems. Two of the tanks had foxface and no chrysos. The two without foxface had chrysos. Now all my tanks have foxface. They are my favorite utility fish.

Vibrant: knowing what I know (or believe) now, I would not use Vibrant in a major SPS tank -- acropora in particular. Otherwise, I think it is safe enough to have a place when used cautiously. As to the accumulation question, I really don't know. I have asked the question a couple times and don't seem to get a high conviction answer. Or I don't understand the answer. Something about "it does not bind to dead surfaces, but only to live tissue". Not sure what to make of that.

Back to chrysos. I really tried MANY different things with patience. I do feel like Vibrant was a key (if not THE key) to resolving. I did not set up a control group to separate the effects. Good luck!

Any speculation on the effectiveness of Fluconazole on chrysophytes?

Also, I’ll get some pics today of this stuff.

 

[ScottB]

Any speculation on the effectiveness of Fluconazole on chrysophytes?

Also, I’ll get some pics today of this stuff.

Fluconazole is a fungicide that does go after algae. Personally, I would not use it unless I had bryopsis. You don't have much choice when it comes to bryopsis. It may work with chrysos, but there are risks with fluconazole.

 

[jcosta98]

Going exactly through what you experienced in this thread... , mine came straight after/with dinos , now dinos are gone and this ones still here.

Tried many things, adding bacteria , UV , basting and filtering through a sock everyday ... they just grow back. It is a mainly SPS tank , but too small for a foxface (200L).

I really didn't want to add vibrant as I had "not so good" experiences with it in a tank before ( It was very small, might have gotten overdosed on it , i don't know).

Feeling like this is my last option

 

[ScottB]

Going exactly through what you experienced in this thread... , mine came straight after/with dinos , now dinos are gone and this ones still here.

Tried many things, adding bacteria , UV , basting and filtering through a sock everyday ... they just grow back. It is a mainly SPS tank , but too small for a foxface (200L).

I really didn't want to add vibrant as I had "not so good" experiences with it in a tank before ( It was very small, might have gotten overdosed on it , i don't know).

Feeling like this is my last option

You are right to be concerned about Vibrant use. Despite the label, the stuff contains an algaecide. There is a rather interesting thread on that discovery around here. It can certainly be overdosed with bad consequences. It did seem to do the trick for me at the "clean tank" dosing level.

 

[bishoptf]

Hey @ScottB @taricha I am still battling something that I continue not to be able to identify and I cannot seem to kick it to the curb. For a recap I did a chemi-clean treatment ( i know I know, never again, lesson learned) for some cyano, almost a year ago I battle dino's and finally moved past but couldnt ever get the cyano to clear up and tried CC and noticed dino's again and this stuff. THe dino's have pretty much abatted, was ostero and keep lights off a few days (fired up the UV again) and have been only running blues and for the most part that has worked for the dino's. However this stuff just keeps trucking and it grows in odd places like under rocks with no light. It's like it catches detrius from the water column and builds a tree structure attached to the rock. It brushes away very easily but seems to float and re-attach. I've tried h202 dosing for a couple of weeks and that has made no change, kind of at a loss as to what to do, I can keep scrubbing and blasting but thats not getting me anywhere either.

I did some google searching and found this from way back that had some good pictures and this is exactly what it looks like - https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/310742-white-fuzz-growing-all-over-tank/ the rock also appears to be fuzzy, I have sails and couple of crabs but nothing seems to really go after it.

Here are my numbers, when dino's raised there head I let nutrients build a little with no water changes...
Nitrate - 15
phosphate - .08
alk-7.4

Id really like to put some sticks in this tank but I keep holding off until I figure out how to address this stuff, it attaches to everything, I even see it on some of my snail shells, lol.

Any suggestions based on that forum photos would be welcome..thanks.

 

[jcosta98]

Going exactly through what you experienced in this thread... , mine came straight after/with dinos , now dinos are gone and this ones still here.

Tried many things, adding bacteria , UV , basting and filtering through a sock everyday ... they just grow back. It is a mainly SPS tank , but too small for a foxface (200L).

I really didn't want to add vibrant as I had "not so good" experiences with it in a tank before ( It was very small, might have gotten overdosed on it , i don't know).

Feeling like this is my last option

Guys, I seem to be able to start doing damage to this stuff. I started using a Silicon remover , I had pretty high levels around 1000 ug/L. I don't know what the levels are now, Will know in around 30 days when I send a new ICP. But seems it started to lose strength.

For example, I have a bare bottom, and it grew in the bottom glass a lot too. I scraped everything ( Did this some times , regularly) and now , it doesn't grow there anymore instead little green algae took its place. I still have it on the rocks , but it is not as bad as it used to be.
Simultaneously I started dosing Fauna Marin ReBiotic , this were the only changes I did, I don't even water change , just siphoning out, added something to start removing silicon and started dosing ReBiotic. My 2 cents

 

[bishoptf]

Guys, I seem to be able to start doing damage to this stuff. I started using a Silicon remover , I had pretty high levels around 1000 ug/L. I don't know what the levels are now, Will know in around 30 days when I send a new ICP. But seems it started to lose strength.

For example, I have a bare bottom, and it grew in the bottom glass a lot too. I scraped everything ( Did this some times , regularly) and now , it doesn't grow there anymore instead little green algae took its place. I still have it on the rocks , but it is not as bad as it used to be.
Simultaneously I started dosing Fauna Marin ReBiotic , this were the only changes I did, I don't even water change , just siphoning out, added something to start removing silicon and started dosing ReBiotic. My 2 cents

What are you using as a silicon remover, I have looked for something but for the most part most just reference GFO which also removes phosphate, would be curious since I have high SI in my tank also, I think it is leaching from the rock.

 

[ScottB]

Hey @ScottB @taricha I am still battling something that I continue not to be able to identify and I cannot seem to kick it to the curb. For a recap I did a chemi-clean treatment ( i know I know, never again, lesson learned) for some cyano, almost a year ago I battle dino's and finally moved past but couldnt ever get the cyano to clear up and tried CC and noticed dino's again and this stuff. THe dino's have pretty much abatted, was ostero and keep lights off a few days (fired up the UV again) and have been only running blues and for the most part that has worked for the dino's. However this stuff just keeps trucking and it grows in odd places like under rocks with no light. It's like it catches detrius from the water column and builds a tree structure attached to the rock. It brushes away very easily but seems to float and re-attach. I've tried h202 dosing for a couple of weeks and that has made no change, kind of at a loss as to what to do, I can keep scrubbing and blasting but thats not getting me anywhere either.

I did some google searching and found this from way back that had some good pictures and this is exactly what it looks like - https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/310742-white-fuzz-growing-all-over-tank/ the rock also appears to be fuzzy, I have sails and couple of crabs but nothing seems to really go after it.

Here are my numbers, when dino's raised there head I let nutrients build a little with no water changes...
Nitrate - 15
phosphate - .08
alk-7.4

Id really like to put some sticks in this tank but I keep holding off until I figure out how to address this stuff, it attaches to everything, I even see it on some of my snail shells, lol.

Any suggestions based on that forum photos would be welcome..thanks.

Sorry Tom but that is a new one for me. The white coloring is particularly puzzling. Usually make me think of some kind of bacterial growth. But the "structure" doesn't seem to support that hypothesis.

It doesn't really blow off, but can be brushed off?

I guess I would be trying to export as much as possible. Get it into the water and run a polishing canister for a while.

 

[jcosta98]

What are you using as a silicon remover, I have looked for something but for the most part most just reference GFO which also removes phosphate, would be curious since I have high SI in my tank also, I think it is leaching from the rock.

This stuff claims to also remove phosphate, but I didn't notice it having that effect . I use Sili-Out 2. In my experience , the only downside is that it leeches a bit of Aluminum into the water, after using this in the past I noticed it reaching 70 ug/L , pretty low. I would not use it for more then 30 days without keeping an eye on Al.