Tank cycling and animal stress - what stores push vs whats right

[PrimaryQwilfish]

I am starting a saltwater tank and am waiting for it to cycle. I am also an ichthyologist so I have a strong background in fish biology and am increasingly annoyed with LFS pushing to cycle with a live fish and a bottle of beneficial bacteria rather than a fishless cycle. I understand the old way has always been to cycle with a fish, but we know that to be cruel now (even though folks still do it). What are others thoughts? I had a store employee practically insult me today for not wanting to use a fish to cycle so I am a bit miffed.

 

[Big G]

Big fan of Seachem Stability and ammonia to do a fishless cycle. You still see the "toss a fish in there" a lot in FW tank discussions. Not cool. Lots of folks like to toss in a shrimp to get their SW tanks going. Seems like a waste of a good meal to me

 

[JimFuller]

I am of a different camp. I do find using animal material to be beneficial, however I do not see a reason to use live fish. The use of a piece of shrimp with MacroBator 7 or equivalent gives an excellent first ammonia, nitrite, nitrate cycle. As the shrimp is aready dead, it does not harm it further. The decay adds normal properties to the tank. As the cycle completes, I add the "Clean Up Crew" to keep things going. When things are stable, I will slowly add livestock to help move me to the next cycle.

Now, to talk about the next cycle. This is the not talked about cycle that will happen in one form or another to get a tank really running well. It can take between 6 weeks to a year after the nitrogen cycle. It often appears as Algae, Dino, etc. It is where the next generation of bacteria develop. These help with controlling nitrate, phosphate, and other chemicals. This is often referred to as the ugly stage. Best advice is to let it happen. All to often we attempt many things that slow down the development of the maturity of the tank by attempting a "quick fix" in this stage. I have found slowly adding livestock and coral develops a much better tank in the long run.

It is my opinion the second cycle is much more important than the first. World wide corals uses a 4 month start up period for their tanks. They do this to encourage the good base development of the second cycle for stability.

 

[Big G]

It is my opinion the second cycle is much more important than the first.

Exactly ^^^ and that's one of the reasons why I like Seachem Stability. It's not the fastest bio start product, but it does, according to my QT logs, create a start up that is more reliable and flexible and stable based on the "lower" number of water changes required in my QTs. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby.

 

[PrimaryQwilfish]

Thank you both for your responses, they had good advice and made me feel better! I've had a bad time of getting insulted over not wanting to do a fish in cycle from LFS even my Saltwater specific one! It had me feeling a bit bewildered

 

[fish farmer]

My first reef was cycled with a box of fresh live rock..lots of life/death to process. Hard to do these days with dry rock, but just add your ammonia source and it will happen.

Reefkeeping is not a race.

 

[Billldg]

This day and age I feel that the fish less cycle is the way to go. Most people, including myself, use some form of bottled bacteria, biospera for myself, and ad ammonia concentrate to build the bacteria.

 

[PrimaryQwilfish]

This day and age I feel that the fish less cycle is the way to go. Most people, including myself, use some form of bottled bacteria, biospera for myself, and ad ammonia concentrate to build the bacteria.

That is what I am doing currently, ammonia and Stability

 

[Gvirgoan]

I am starting a saltwater tank and am waiting for it to cycle. I am also an ichthyologist so I have a strong background in fish biology and am increasingly annoyed with LFS pushing to cycle with a live fish and a bottle of beneficial bacteria rather than a fishless cycle. I understand the old way has always been to cycle with a fish, but we know that to be cruel now (even though folks still do it). What are others thoughts? I had a store employee practically insult me today for not wanting to use a fish to cycle so I am a bit miffed.

My LFS did the same thing to me today, practically tried to force me in to buying a Damsel (which I don't want), I explained I was using the Table Shrimp Method and they looked at me as if I was committing a crime!!!

 

[PrimaryQwilfish]

My LFS did the same thing to me today, practically tried to force me in to buying a Damsel (which I don't want), I explained I was using the Table Shrimp Method and they looked at me as if I was committing a crime!!!

They did the same thing to me with using a bottle of ammonia!

 

[PrimaryQwilfish]

I am of a different camp. I do find using animal material to be beneficial, however I do not see a reason to use live fish. The use of a piece of shrimp with MacroBator 7 or equivalent gives an excellent first ammonia, nitrite, nitrate cycle. As the shrimp is aready dead, it does not harm it further. The decay adds normal properties to the tank. As the cycle completes, I add the "Clean Up Crew" to keep things going. When things are stable, I will slowly add livestock to help move me to the next cycle.

Now, to talk about the next cycle. This is the not talked about cycle that will happen in one form or another to get a tank really running well. It can take between 6 weeks to a year after the nitrogen cycle. It often appears as Algae, Dino, etc. It is where the next generation of bacteria develop. These help with controlling nitrate, phosphate, and other chemicals. This is often referred to as the ugly stage. Best advice is to let it happen. All to often we attempt many things that slow down the development of the maturity of the tank by attempting a "quick fix" in this stage. I have found slowly adding livestock and coral develops a much better tank in the long run.

It is my opinion the second cycle is much more important than the first. World wide corals uses a 4 month start up period for their tanks. They do this to encourage the good base development of the second cycle for stability.

I think I have reached the beginning of the second cycle. My rock has covered with what I am guessing is diatom algae, and a bit of hair algae has started popping out. I only have one fish (watchman goby), two hermit crabs(blue legs), and a GSP frag. Should I continue waiting to get my next fish/coral until the diatoms die back? I was considering adding an asreria snail and another hermit crab. Thankfully the diatoms covering the rock seems to be somewhat holding the hair algae at bay. I am using instant ocean for my salt with an RODI unit for my water, which I know isnt the best marine salt but eh poor college student.

 

[Engloid]

Whatever you do, you will always have times at which ammonia availability exceeds bacterial ability to consume it. Its just a matter of how much. I always cycle with fish, and dont have problems with ammonia, because I dont overload the systems ability to consume it.

 

[JimFuller]

I think I have reached the beginning of the second cycle. My rock has covered with what I am guessing is diatom algae, and a bit of hair algae has started popping out. I only have one fish (watchman goby), two hermit crabs(blue legs), and a GSP frag. Should I continue waiting to get my next fish/coral until the diatoms die back? I was considering adding an asreria snail and another hermit crab. Thankfully the diatoms covering the rock seems to be somewhat holding the hair algae at bay. I am using instant ocean for my salt with an RODI unit for my water, which I know isnt the best marine salt but eh poor college student.

Sails and other cleanup crew members are appropriate. If you wish to add a fish to assist with the algae, tangs are good. However, depending on your other desired fish, you may wish to hold off. Tangs can get territorial and be a bit of a bully.

The algae with eventually reced and help establish a great amount of filtration. Just keep your additions reasonable and enjoy building your little slice of the Ocean.

 

[JimFuller]

One other thing, I use Instant Ocean Reef Crystals. I started with Instant Ocean salt and moved to Reef Crystals to keep the Alkalinity up during water changes. Your testing will help you with that. It will depend on your corals and their growth.

 

[timrocks311]

The fish cycle is just unnecessary. I cycled my tank with some Bio-Spira and three raw shrimp from the supermarket (cost like $0.75). When the shrimp started to really break down and fall apart I removed them. It was done the cycle in about 5 days. It worked great and I would absolutely do it again.

 

[Engloid]

I would say that waiting is unnecessary. This hobby can be as difficult as you want it to be. Some people like to dwell on every little detail that they can, and enjoy that. It doesn't necessarily mean that their way is the right way and the only way.

 

[Engloid]

I would say that waiting is unnecessary. This hobby can be as difficult as you want it to be. Some people like to dwell on every little detail that they can, and enjoy that. It doesn't necessarily mean that their way is the right way and the only way.

I'm not saying that you should get a 10 gallon aquarium in 410 fish in it on day one, but if you have a 55 gallon aquarium when you put one small fish in it to cycle it, do water changes as needed, you won't have any problems.

 

[sde1500]

I'm not saying that you should get a 10 gallon aquarium in 410 fish in it on day one, but if you have a 55 gallon aquarium when you put one small fish in it to cycle it, do water changes as needed, you won't have any problems.

Yea, you won't, but I'm sure the fish living in the toxic environment may have a few.

 

[Engloid]

Yea, you won't, but I'm sure the fish living in the toxic environment may have a few.

Yeah let me know when your fish begin talking to you. Until then, you are merely arguing the point of ammonia levels that are lower than you can even detect with most test kits.


We could split hairs on many issues in this Hobby. It is not a matter of who goes into the most detail and pains that is always right. However, as with any hobby, those that go to the most effort and split the most hairs will often criticize others that do not.

 

[Engloid]

The levels of ammonia that I am talking about you would not even be able to detect. Somehow I don't think you would be that concerned about people shutting off their skimmers and changing the oxygen level in the water during feeding times.